Duty Times

[Boilermaker]

Does anyone know what the FAA deems the start of duty time when you are on an overnight??? For instance, if you have to check out of your hotel at noon but your flight does not leave until 8pm, did your duty start at noon or something like 7pm? We don't run into this often but it has become a sticky point and I want to know the correct legal interpretation.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Gulfstream 200]

your company wont keep you in a hotel for a half day?

What do you do, hang out at the FBO?

From my past (and foggy) rememberance of 135, duty times started anhour before scheduled departure (haha)...they dont care where you rest....

Im just dont see why you wouldnt stay in the hotel until 6pm or so..

.

 

[Boilermaker]

Duty Time

I know this isn't the correct forum but I figure you guys run into this alot. I work for a 135 company and I have a question about duty time. When you are overnight, what is the legal answer as to when your duty time starts the next day? For instance, if you have to check out at noon but your flight leaves at 8pm, when does the FAA say your duty time starts??? Thanks in advance for the input.

 

[FRLWD]

When I worked for a 135 company, I was told by our POI that duty starts an hour before your scheduled departure or if you've been placed on stand-by. According to her it doesn't matter when you check out of the hotel, as long as you're not on stand-by.

 

[need2fly]

Dependes on why you are checking out of the hotel. Does thecompany want you available to fly earlier if the pax show up? Ifso then duty starts at noon-ish. If they are just cheap and won'tpay the day rate, then your duty starts at your required show time andit is time to start looking for a better company to work for.

n2f

 

[Flying Illini]

That's pretty much how it goes for us. But if we have a flight that leaves at 8pm, we keep the hotel until 5 or 6 pm, then head to the airport to get things ready. When we arrive at the airport, our duty time starts. Staying in a hotel as long as you can (they don't care if we get charged an extra day) is just like getting a day room. Like today, I goCMI-MDW-MSN-MDW and spend the night there, then don't leave until 6pm the next evening, so we will keep our hotel rooms and rest as long as possible.

 

[Otter]

could be urban legend...but......

I believe there is pretty straight forward case law from the FAA on this. And while you, might not be "on duty", if you are not in " suitable rest conditions" you are not in rest.I think the interp came due to the operators who claimed pilots in sleep rooms in the FBO were "in rest."

 

[mavrck]

Ya, unfortunately the duty time would start when you would have to be at the airport doing your function as pilot and doing pilot duties. Ie weather, preflight, etc.

Getting kicked outta the hotel early and you have no choice but go back to the FBO doesnt count on the duty time. But, im sure the fatigue time starts the moment you get to the FBO and have to sit in a straight back metal chair for hours on end waiting til 8pm.

I too run into this problem alot, unfortunately. But there isnt too much we can do about it. Ops says that just because you arent in the hotel doesnt mean you are resting. Or even when you ARE in the hotel you arent actually FORCED to sleep for your rest. You can do whatever you want during rest like ski, paint, drink (not for too long though)

Just another way for our cheap bosses to save a buck or two.

 

[guido411]

Isn't it obvious? Duty time starts IMMEDIATELY following your 10th hour after duty off, which is PRECISELY when the phone will ring for your days' trip changes!

 

[leardawg]

When I worked for a 135 company, I was told by our POI that duty starts an hour before your scheduled departure or if you've been placed on stand-by. According to her it doesn't matter when you check out of the hotel, as long as you're not on stand-by.

The key point here is that it usually comes down to what your POI says is acceptable. You can ask the same question at 10 different FSDOs, and get 10 different opinions. Duty/rest policy should be spelled out in your company's ops manual after being vetted with your POI.

 

[Live4flyng]

The key point here is that it usually comes down to what your POI says is acceptable. You can ask the same question at 10 different FSDOs, and get 10 different opinions. Duty/rest policy should be spelled out in your company's ops manual after being vetted with your POI.

It has nothing to do with POIs or FSDOs. The administrator is the authority, and they will issue you a violation. If you have a responsibility to be contactable, then you are not in rest. Your duty time starts at show time. The 135 clock starts ticking at the end of your rest. 14 hours from the end of that rest period, all 135 flights need to be completed, with the except of unforseen circumstances that are beyond your control, e.g.(holding enroute).

 

[350DRIVER]

Your duty day would not start until you arrive at your departure airport to perform duties pertaining to the flight that you are working for that specific day. If I didn't have a wheels up time until 8pm then no way in hell would I be checking out at noon to go sit around the airport for 7+ hours. The company would be paying for half a day rate if I was unable to get a late check out authorized. Most of the larger more upscale hotels would give a late 5pm/6pm checkout as long as they were not sold out for that night.

3 5 0

 

[leardawg]

It has nothing to do with POIs or FSDOs. The administrator is the authority, and they will issue you a violation. If you have a responsibility to be contactable, then you are not in rest. Your duty time starts at show time. The 135 clock starts ticking at the end of your rest. 14 hours from the end of that rest period, all 135 flights need to be completed, with the except of unforseen circumstances that are beyond your control, e.g.(holding enroute).

As a former 135 Chief Pilot with a number of years of 135 experience, I do beg to differ a little. Granted, FAR Part 135 is very specific when it comes to duty vs. rest. There are , however, some gray areas subject to interpretation. This is especially true concerning what is legal rest. There is nothing in the FARs that specifically says you cannot be at rest if you have to be contactable (unless there is something recent I am not aware of-I've been away from 135 for a couple of years). This has been a point of contention for some time. I have had one FSDO tell me that they would violate a pilot for something our FSDO had signed off on, only to have our FSDO say the other one was full of crap. The Administrator IS the ultimate authority, and your POI is the administator's representative. Following your company's specific, FSDO-approved or accepted policy, as spelled out in your ops. manual, is your safest bet. I'm not saying this will be fool-proof protection should some entity outside of your FSDO decide to make a case. However, I've never heard of anyone getting into trouble for following ops manual policies and procedures. My point is this is not yet an exact science, as much as some people claim it to be. These areas need to be hammered out with your POI and the results put in writing in the ops manual.

 

[HMR]

When I flew charter in SoCal, the POI's interpretation of the regs depended on how often our Chief Pilot and DO took them to lunch.

 

[leardawg]

It has nothing to do with POIs or FSDOs. The administrator is the authority, and they will issue you a violation. If you have a responsibility to be contactable, then you are not in rest. Your duty time starts at show time. The 135 clock starts ticking at the end of your rest. 14 hours from the end of that rest period, all 135 flights need to be completed, with the except of unforseen circumstances that are beyond your control, e.g.(holding enroute).

I would also like to point out that the requirement for going beyond the limits due to unforeseen delays applies to the 10 hours flight time limitation, not the 14-hour duty day, as you state. If you read the FAR, there appears to be no provision for going over 14 hours. It's interesting to note that at FLOPS, we are scheduled to switch to Part 135 next month. Our new SOPs regarding duty and rest allow for a duty day of up to 15 1/2 hours due to unforeseen delays. I presume (maybe naively) that this has been approved by our POI. If you read the FARs literally, this is illegal. How can this be so? My only thinking is that the fact that the 14-hour duty day is based on planned completion time is the loophole. Another FSDO might very well have an issue with this. In fact, one FSDO stated a few years ago that if you went one minute over 14 hours, you were in violation as far as they are concerned (even if you were an air-ambulance with a critical patient on-board, they expected you to land!). It kind of illustrates my overall point.

 

[lv2flyy]

Duty time usually starts from the time you start getting paid, at least that is how it was worked out when I was flying 135

 

[lv2flyy]

Duty time usually starts from the time you start getting paid. At least that is how it worked when I was flying 135

 

[wingnutt]

Duty time usually starts from the time you start getting paid.

...huh?

 

[aeronautic1]

Hotel

Company credit card... stay in hotel until 1.5 hours prior to wheels up. My current 135 operator is real good about accomodations at late departures. However there are still those out there that think that a recliner in the back of an FBO is suitable rest area.

Now, lets talk about those 91 returns after a 6.2 hour leg...

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The 14 hour duty day is a grey area EXCEPT if you fly over 10 hours. In the section that describes flying > 10 hrs, the 14 hours is a mandatory MAX duty day.

All of the above discussion won't matter in a couple of months. The re-write of the FARs is due soon.

-125 will be eliminated
All of -135 will be re-written, with special emphasis on flight and duty times. ALso, -121 flight and duty time regs will be rewritten.

Cliff
YIP

PS-I have heard that the FSDOs do interpret a whole bunch of the regs in different ways. Hopefully the new regs will have less grey areas and more black and white.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I've always been told that if the company requires you to be at the airport than you are on duty. I usually have to fight with the company to get the extra time in the hotel. Not because they are being cheap, but because the customer is being billed for the room. If they have the foresight, the rooms are already included in the quote. If I'm not going to be using the room because I'm going to a movie or something I'll check out on my own.


The real key is what you are required to do. If you are told to be at the airport, you are on duty. If you are released to do as you wish, you are off duty.

 

[Live4flyng]

I would also like to point out that the requirement for going beyond the limits due to unforeseen delays applies to the 10 hours flight time limitation, not the 14-hour duty day, as you state. If you read the FAR, there appears to be no provision for going over 14 hours. It's interesting to note that at FLOPS, we are scheduled to switch to Part 135 next month. Our new SOPs regarding duty and rest allow for a duty day of up to 15 1/2 hours due to unforeseen delays. I presume (maybe naively) that this has been approved by our POI. If you read the FARs literally, this is illegal. How can this be so? My only thinking is that the fact that the 14-hour duty day is based on planned completion time is the loophole. Another FSDO might very well have an issue with this. In fact, one FSDO stated a few years ago that if you went one minute over 14 hours, you were in violation as far as they are concerned (even if you were an air-ambulance with a critical patient on-board, they expected you to land!). It kind of illustrates my overall point.

I would caution anyone who operates in this manner. The (FAA) has consistently interpreted "rest" requirements to be satisfied only if the rest time is determined prospectively, is continuous, is free from all duty and restraint, and is free from the responsibility for work should the occasion arise. A period when a pilot has a present responsibility for work, if called, does not qualify as a rest period. This should be contrasted with a pilot who does not have a present responsibility to fly, if called. I invite you to review FAR 135.263 (b) and (d). FAR 135.267 clearly states that 10 hours of flight time is the maximum for a 2 pilot crew and 14 hours is the maximum duty day that can be assigned. Combined duty and rest periods equal 24 hours. At least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24 hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment must be provided.

If you are operating PART 135, and exceeding 14 hours of duty intentionally, you are in violation of the FARs regardless of what the FSDO or POI is telling you. The FAA has stated they will enforce flight time limitations and rest requirement violations. Just because you have done something a certain way forever does not mean it is correct. As others have stated, you can ask 12 different FSDOs and get 12 different interpretaions, the Administrator is the authority. Please show me where it says you can exceed a Part 135, 14 hour duty day in your OPSPECS.

 

[kilroy]

If your POI signs off on 15 1/2 duty day then its legal. Alot of things get approved in OP Specs that are different then the regs IE : Lower then standard take off mins.. We can take of 600 RVR but the regs state we need 1 mile for two engines so you see there are alot of OPS Specs that are different from the regs. The op specs are the bible to a 135 operator if you follow them you will keep your self legal

 

[FracDaddy]

this very question is being a problem at Flight Options at this moment. the company wants to require us to be available for flight following 10 hr of rest but do not want the time of this requirement to start our new duty day. they are trying to get their local feds to give them some special consideration, i hope it dose not happen. they will use and abuse us.

here are the definitions.



Rest:

Definition: a period of time that is free from all responsibility for work or duty prior to the commencement of, or following completion of, a duty period, and during which the flight crewmember cannot be required to receive contact from the certificate holder for purposes of certificate operations.



Rest Required: Not less than 10 consecutive hours of rest is required following completion of a duty assignment.



In addition, each flight crewmember is provided at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in each calendar quarter.



Transportation: Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to a place which the crewmember is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from a place at which he or she was relieved from duty to return to the crewmember’s home station, is not considered part of a rest period.





Duty:

Definition: the time a certificate holder has assigned a crewmember to specific duties and responsibilities. Duty time begins when a crewmember reports and ends when he or she is released or the duty period expires.



Duty Limitations: A duty period is no longer than 14 hours in single and two pilot operations. However, a 14-hour duty assignment may be extended beyond the planned completion time of the assignment, because of circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as air traffic control delays, adverse weather conditions, medical needs, and late arrivals of passengers &/or cargo).



Following a duty period, the certificate holder must provide the flight crewmember with a rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours. If the duty period is extended by the certificate holder beyond 14 hours, the flight crewmember shall receive a rest period of at least 12 consecutive hours.



Duty limitations and post-duty rest requirements for augmented crews will remain consistent with current regulations.

 

[cvsfly]

To simplify the discussion lets stick to "Un-scheduled 1 & 2 pilot crews" operators which I assume is the majority here. I hear these regs get miss quoted/interpreted all the time. It would help if the FAA simplified and used consistant language among all the operators. Applicable regs are:135.261, 135.263, 135.267. 135.261 (b)(2) states that any other operator (other than scheduled) can elect to use 135.265 requirements and obtain the appropriate Ops Spec (A033 I assume). 135.263 states that the operator and crewmember are responsible for these regs, can't assign any duty during a required rest period, transportation not local is not of a rest period, and FLIGHT time limitations are not considered exceeded if a flight is originally scheduled to meet the limits (7:59 & 9:59 right!) is circumstances beyond the operator or crew (such as bad weather). "Legal to start - legal to finish". 135.267: again to simplify let's stick to 2 crew/10 hr flight. I've heard the arguement before that "there is no duty time limit stated for unscheduled 135". The "14 duty day" is interpolated from the requirement to have a 10 hr rest period within the preceding 24 hr of the planned completion time of the assignment (135.267(d)). And there is no provision that I see to go over "duty" time. Provisions are made to allow to go over 10 hr flight -.267(b)(2), (c), & (d). I've also heard that an operator chooses to operate based on (b) or (c) - is this correct? It's never been a concern for us because we never get assigned FLIGHT time near 10hr. We do tell our customers that want to schedle all day long that the schedule allows for 1 hr preflight, 12 hr from take-off to final landing, :30 post-flight, :30 fudge factor - a 14 hr duty day. If they want more time, we must plan for 10+ hr rest in a booked hotel room between arrival and departure. The scenario we haven't yet seen is when you taxi out and then they pull an indefinate ground stop delay. How do operators handle this? Section R of your Operations Manual (Basic Operator) usually states Flight & Duty Limitations. Ours just states that we will follow 135.261 & .267 (no break-down). How are others worded?

 

[FracDaddy]

"cvsfly"

Thanks for the info. The problem comes when the company puts a duty related burden on the crew but does not want to call that burden duty.

I'll use the example that Flight Options is having a problem accepting.

Lets say that I finished my last flight @ 1500 this afternoon and duty off 1 hr later @1600. Go into 10 hr of rest for officially ending @ 0200. I am briefed for flights the following day @ 1000 requiring a duty on @ 0900 giving me 6 hr over the required rest.

Here is where they have a problem.

My official rest ends @ 0200 and the company says that we have to take calls form the company after 0200 and be subject to any flight requirement they have after that time. This is a company duty requirement and as such under the FAA definition of what constitutes "rest" ends that rest period and begins our duty day.

Rest:

Definition: a period of time that is free from all responsibility for work or duty prior to the commencement of, or following completion of, a duty period, and during which the flight crewmember cannot be required to receive contact from the certificate holder for purposes of certificate operations.

When the company places a requirement of any work or duty related responsibility or communication on the crew that officially ends the rest period and begins a new duty period. Options wants to put us on the bubble and make us available for duty with out actually calling it duty. They can't have it both ways.

 

[cvsfly]

Agreed. That's pretty bogus. Have a talk with your FSDO. Obviously the company is not looking at the bigger picture of duty limitations vs real fatigue/health issues. Do you think you are going to be safe with THEIR million dollar equipment when your rest periods and duty periods are constantly scheduled to the maximum allowed by FARs or your rest periods are constantly changing over a short period of time messing with your circadian rythyms (sp?).