Duty Time

[Ghetto Sled]

I Hate Duty Time Regs
I'm new to 135 and have a duty time question concerning:

a.) 135 flight time limitations for single pilot UNSCHEDULED operations
b.) and the 24 hour 'look back'

So far, I understand:
1. 10 hr rest period is required prior to accepting an assignment
2. Empty legs to pick up a pax DOES count towards the 8 hr limitation,
even if the flight is operated under part 91.
3. The return trip home (empty) is at my discretion and under part 91 and
does not count towards the 8 hrs.

So, here's my question; when 'looking back' prior to accepting a flight does a pilot include the empty 91 leg home into his next 8hr period? As I wrote in the above, I know that it doesn't count during the current day on the tail end, but does it count on the next front end. I'll try to clarify my question with an example.

EXAMPLE
A pilot comes back from a weeks vacation and recieves a trip.
DAY ONE:
1600L--Departs base empty to pick up pax
1700L--Arrives to pick up pax
(+1 hr 135 Flying)
1900L--Departs with pax
2100L--Arrives with pax
(+2 hrs 135)
(3 hrs Total 135 Flying)
2200L--Departs Empty back to base
2400L--Arrives at base
(3 hrs 135 & 5 hrs TOTAL FLYING)
Clocks out and has min of 10 hrs of rest.

The next day the phone rings and the pilot is asked to report to work at 1900L and the trip will depart at 2000L.

The rest requirement has been satisfied. Looking back over the 24 hr period, beginning at the planned time of takeoff (2000L) the pilot has flown a total of 1 hr 135 (20-21L) + the 2 hrs home for a TOTAL of 3 hrs.

1. Is the pilot required to include that empty trip home in his look back?
2. Does he have 7 hours available to him or 5?
3. What ever the max might be (5 or 7), let's say the pilot gets to the
destination timed out; can he then fly home 91?

Thanks to any that can help!

 

[iflyjets4food]

DAY ONE:
1600L--Departs base empty to pick up pax
1700L--Arrives to pick up pax
(+1 hr 135 Flying)
1900L--Departs with pax
2100L--Arrives with pax
(+2 hrs 135)
(3 hrs Total 135 Flying)
2200L--Departs Empty back to base
2400L--Arrives at base
(3 hrs 135 & 5 hrs TOTAL FLYING)
Clocks out and has min of 10 hrs of rest.

The next day the phone rings and the pilot is asked to report to work at 1900L and the trip will depart at 2000L.

The rest requirement has been satisfied. Looking back over the 24 hr period, beginning at the planned time of takeoff (2000L) the pilot has flown a total of 1 hr 135 (20-21L) + the 2 hrs home for a TOTAL of 3 hrs.

1. Is the pilot required to include that empty trip home in his look back?
2. Does he have 7 hours available to him or 5?
3. What ever the max might be (5 or 7), let's say the pilot gets to the
destination timed out; can he then fly home 91?

Thanks to any that can help!

If you depart on the trip leaving at 2000L and fly for 5+ hours without landing, I'd say you're going to have a problem. The looking back for 8 hours of flying time is based on the moment you look back. I.E. if you look back at 2000L, you may decide that you have only 5 hours left (I'll have to do some digging in regs to see what the interpretation for 91 vs. 135 in the 8 hour figuring, but lets assume it's all flying). If you land at 2300, or 3 hours of flying, and then look back over the past 24, you'll find that the hours you flew between 2000 and 2300 the day before no longer apply to the 8 hours since they would have been more than 24 hours ago. Without getting into the regs, that's all I can help you with right now. I'll look and see what I can find.

 

[gto2002]

I believe that the 91 legs being the last ones do not count towards the 135 time. When you look back you have a solid 9 hours of 135 time you can fly plus you will lose that that hour from the other trip so you could do a 10 hour trip if I remember the situation correctly. I have not had that problem come up yet. You look back at the last 24 hours and cannot have more then 10 hours of 135 flight time in that period. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[gto2002]

My bad I was thinking 2 crew. I do not think the repo flight would be looked as 135 or any other commerical flying. Good question.

 

[Ghetto Sled]

I was asking this question after reading a blurb in a book titled, Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot. On-demand operators must use a rolling 24 consecutive hour clock. Here's what the book said and why I'm a little confused . . .

"Part 91 Ferry flights (no cargo or pax) for the purpose of positioning the aircraft to pick up pax or cargo DOES count as part of the duty period and Part 135 flight time limitations."
"Part 91 ferry flights for the purpose of repositioning an aircraft back to home base (empty) after completion of a 135 flight may be conducted WITHOUT regard to the Part 135 flight or duty time requirements, because they are conducted at the descretion of the crew."

So far, no problems. But then,
"The Part 91 leg home is not counted against the current duty periods daily flight time limitation-although, such flights will be counted against the subsequent daily flight time limitations."

It then directs you to see the Rolling 24 hour Clock on the next page which states, "Before you accept a trip, you must be able to count backwards 24 hours from the projected duty completion time of the contemplated assignment and insure you will have at least 10 hrs consecutive rest and that you will not exceed the 8 hours single pilot flight time during those 14 hours on duty."

This is why I'm confused.
Can somebody help?

 

[Rick1128]

Unfortunately there are several books out there that try to explain Flight Duty times where the author puts his twist and personal opinion. There are several interpretations of the flight duty time regs written by FAA Legal. Boiled down, they come to this:

Repo flights prior to the 135 flight are 135 for F/D time and 91 for everything else.

Repo flights after the 135 portion are Part 91 except that your rest time starts after you finish your flights. As transporation not local in nature and provided by the company is not considered rest time.

For duty time you must be able to look back from the PLANNED completion of the flight and find 10 hours of continous rest time.

There are provisions in 135 for flying over your flight time. While there is NO direct provision for going over duty time, the duty time regulation does cover it.

BUT one thing that must be kept in mind is that it MUST BE 'REASONABLE AND PRUDENT'. This is from the FAA intrepretations.Flying from East Europe into the East coast and putting in a 14 hour duty day and then flying 5 to 6 hours to the West Coast Part 91, doesn't really pass the muster as reasonable and prudent. And this also applies to the straight Part 91 operators as well. You must be able to justify the oveage. Written pilot reports are excellent for this.

 

[Princedietrich]

A way to alleviate some of the brain damage from thinking too hard about the duty regs is to take a more or less common sense or simplified look at it.

At the time you report for duty, look back through the previous 10 hours. If you were at rest for all 10, you are legal.

If you are flying a part 91 leg (ie, nobody or nothing in the back) which is a part of a 135 route or mission, prudence would dictate that you DO count this leg towards the duty time limitations. Yes, it's under 91 rules. But at the same time, you're flying for the needs of the company and are (should be) getting paid for the leg.

For the 24 hour rolling window thing, try this. Tally up the time that you accrued starting with the moment you "clock out" and going back to when your 10 hour rest period officially ended and you "clocked in." If that time adds up to less than 8, you should be golden. This can be "what iffed" to death I'm sure, but for the most part it should keep you legal.

When it comes to preventing a bust of the 14 hour duty or the 8 hour flight limitation, try this. Before you depart for a leg, consider the scheduled/planned time enroute and factor in weather and ATC goofiness. If there is any reasonable chance that you will bust one of those limitations, the 8 or the 14, then don't depart. This may tick off the CP and DO, but it will keep you legal. Now, if you departed with all certainty that you would not bust the limits during that leg and something crazy and unexpected happened, then it wasn't your fault and there's no harm no foul. The bust has to be for a reason "beyond the control of the operator" like a suprise blizzard or a controller having a psychotic episode at the scope or Godzilla eating your airport or something.

Now the reason why I mention a 14 hour duty time limit, even though there technically isn't one set in stone, is because in order to meet that 10 hour minimum rest within a 24 hour period you would technically have 14 hours left over for duty. Granted you can exceed that 14 just so long as you get 10 hours rest before going back on duty again. Many oeprators do/should have a company policy that forbids going over 14 unless it's for an unplanned reason.

 

[b350capt]

does anyone have any REAL evidience of theses interpretations and case law? I mean documented information from the FAA or Chief counsel? if so, i would truly apprecieate it. I have read the whitlow letter, ata, etc....but looking for others. Also....a second question. Does anyone have any information on an interpretation on the necessity for a REALEASE TIME from duty. Standby time is not limited nor does it require rest, but it is also NOT considered rest if you are required to answer the phone, blackberry, etc. I know there are interpretations and case law to back this up, but any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Nolife]

First... yes the 91 deadhead time counts toward the 8 hrs in 24 if your next trip has any Part 135 in it.

Second... the rolling clock is just that... it goes back and forward meaning that as you go about your duty day you drop time. You said you depart the second trip at 2000L. Look back 24 hrs to 2000L the previous night and see how many hours flown. If enough time has passed you start dropping time as you gain time keeping you equal . Meaning that you ask yourself as you look back at 2000L, good to go? Then look back at 2100L, still good? 2200L and so forth. So long as in those 24 hr blocks of time you haven't exceeded 8 hrs of commercial flying you're legal.

It really only gets you if you fly a lot just before going off duty and then have just 10 hrs rest before another long leg. An easy way to visualize it is to make a 24 hr bar graph and mark out the flying you did on the bar.

Example:

[2000:/6 hr flt/0400 -------rest------1400:/2 hr flt/:1800 ---rest---2000]

In the above graph :erm: after 1800 you couldn't fly any more until 2000 when you will start dropping flight time.

Clear as mud now?

 

[avbug]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=86543

 

[TheBrain]

At the time you report for duty, look back through the previous 10 hours. If you were at rest for all 10, you are legal.

Very VERY wrong.

 

[ClassG]

Legal Schmeegal.

Simple rules:

If you are offered a trip, and are concerned about duty/rest, you'll need to look over the planned itinerary VERY carefully.

If at any time during the entire series you will exceed 8 hours flight time from "that minute back 24 hours," you cannot fly the trip single-pilot.

If you might exceed 8 hours, but not more than 10 hours in ANY 24-hour lookback (from that minute back 24 hours) then you may fly with a QUALIFIED crewmember (trained,checked,current - by your operator in the capacity - PIC/SIC & right-seat/left-seat in the aircraft make/model - they will function.)

ALL COMMERCIAL FLYING counts in this lookback. If you conducted FREE flight instruction for a friend last night, you better be able to prove you were not compensated in any way. Even then, the FAA will likely rule that you have excercised the privilages of your commercial certificate, therefore it was COMMERCIAL FLYING.

As stated above, remember that for every minute you fly today, you MAY BE losing a minute off of yesterday's flying - it's a matter of timing (looking from this minute back 24 hours).

14 hour PRE-PLANNED duty day should be handed to you in writing before you start it. If given an itinerary where everything is planned for a legal completion, the 14 hours may be exceeded when circumstances arise which are beyond the control of the pilot and company. Example: Most FAA legal findings have allowed the operator to complete the series when the passengers agreed to a specific departure time and then "got stuck in traffic" for an extra (reasonable) period.

The 8 (or 10) hours flying rules may be exceeded if, again, TRULY beyond the control of the pilot and company. Example: holding in UNFORECAST/UNEXPECTED conditions for an extra 20 minutes.

Exceeding any flight or duty time needs to result in an extended rest period.

To be safe, just go with 16 hours ANY TIME your 14 hour duty day is exceeded. EVEN when the day in question is ALL PART 91. Just because you can legally accept stupid-long days as a corporate pilot, does not mean you are legal to begin flying Part 135 on "10 hours" rest. Apply part 135 rules to Part 91 day finish-ups, to be safe and legal.

PM me with any questions - I'll be glad to go into greater detail.

ClassG

 

[Princedietrich]

Very VERY wrong.

Childish flamebait. Go home and play on your Xbox.

 

[avbug]

14 hour PRE-PLANNED duty day should be handed to you in writing before you start it.

Not true. No such requirement exists, nor is it possible in most cases involving on-demand charter. For pilots operating on a regular schedule, the 14 hour duty period is known, but what may occur during that period often is not. For pilots not on a regular schedule, no 14 hour duty day exists (only a look-back rest requirement [read the thread and link above]).

Childish flamebait.

Possibly, but the poster is correct. Follow the link provided above for more detail, as I'm really tired of posting it over and over and over...

 

[Hawker rider]

It's not too complicated, but look at the link that Avbug posted.

The only thing to look out for is the tail-end positioning. You are allowed to do that part91, without the 135 "restrictions" but to home-base. If you decide to use that as a pre-position for a flight the next day and the start of that135 flight is not home base, you'd better cound the tail end as 135 too.. this is open for interpretation. But might get you into trouble if looked into.

 

[Nolife]

as I'm really tired of posting it over and over and over...

But avbug... I though it was your job to patrol the boards, correcting injustices, and keeping balance in cyberspace