Duane Worth Cashes in on B6

[Chronic Jetlag]

reality check

If If? Sounds like high school english to me Cuz? Market will bear? If guys were not willing to fly an airbus for 120k a year we would not be in the predicament we are in. Why do you guys not have the ability to negotiate? I know the answer to that already. Just curious if you have figured it out yet. Believe me Cuz, I have smelled the coffee and no longer want to work in a field where high school graduates earn the same as college and post graduate folks. A college degree is supposed to be worth something but, I guess not in the piloting profession. Enjoy your job. By the way, you have no clue what a good contract is. Do you even have a contract?

Mr. 800Dog:
Once again you are personally attacking your fellow pilots. I admit I'm not the best typist in the world and made a few typos. If this is all you're bringing to the table then you should re-arm yourself with facts rather than personal insults. A sound argument carries weight and merit, a personal insult only exposes your ignorance & hubris. You made it quite obvious that flying an A320 for $120K/year is beneath you and you feel insulted and acrimonious that other pilots are whoring themselves and eroding the profession by flying for less. Ask yourself what your education, flying skills, airmanship is really worth to corporate America if you couldn't fly? How marketable are your skills to corporate America? A college degree no longer guarantees or even assures a good, high paying career. A medical doctor comes out of med school eye balls deep in student loans. Has to work 24 hours straight during their residency...and have you really checked lately what new doctors are really making? Why don't you read last month's article in the Economist magazine about a surgeon's compensation. Personally I feel the airline pilot profession is the most professional, the most noble profession on earth; higher than doctors and lawyers. It brings out the best and...unfortunately the worst in people. In times of peril it tests your strength & character. I have personally seen the best and the worst in pilots; we are our own worst enemy. Pilots eats their youngs.

Do yourself a favor and do a little self inventory and be honest with yourself. I don't like it either but the harsh reality is this: Airline pilots possess a skill that's very much like a trade; we practice our trade and our employers compensate us with $$$. All of us are expendable, no different from one another. We all dream for the "good old days", the days of Pan Am, Eastern, TWA. But those days are long gone and as much as I hate to admit it I must roll with the punches and change with the times. Right now I still feel being an airline pilot is worth it. The day that I feel it's not worth it I'll pack it up and go sell real estate or be a greeter at Wal Mart but I promise you won't find me on this form blaming my fellow pilots for my woes with disparaging remarks!!!

 

[FNG_that's me]

Bill Gates does not have a college degree.

And you're not Bill Gates.

This is like people who don't wear seatbelts because they know someone who was thrown from a crash and would have been killed if they had been wearing the belt. A statistical anomaly.

Don't let one datapoint skew your view of what can make you successful in this world. Does a college degree automatically make you smart? No. Does it make you a smarter person than you were without it. Yes.

Do you need a college degree to be as rich as Bill Gates? Not if you're Bill Gates.
If you're making tons of dollars and don't have a degree...don't waste your time getting one. But Bill Gates not having one is not an excuse to put in the effort to improve your position in life.

 

[jimcav]

800dog what's with your hang up over those with a college degree? You sound like one of those lifelong nerds who made fun of the dumb jocks when you were younger. The great thing about this profession is the cross section of fine folks we work with. Some better educated than others. I judge a fellow pilot by his professionalism, not how he looks on paper. I have flown with the intellectual types (who are not shy in letting you know how brilliant they are) who can't even land on the centerline or worse yet can't even fly pitch and power. I have also flown with the types that you loathe who have common sense and an inate ability to fly the hell out of an airplane. These qualities along with good situational awareness are what make a good pilot. Come down off your high horse man. I hate to sound cocky because I know that one day the guy facing the pay cut and the lifestyle change could be me, and I truly feel for those in that position right now. That being said if you think that 140k a yr plus 10.5 B fund contribution and 16-17 days off a month with 3 weeks vacation is that bad then please stay the hell away from AirTran cause I sure don't want to fly with you. We have a ton of folks who have walked a mile in your shoes that are happy to be here. I apologize if this rant sounds kinda dumb as I am not exactly among the intellectual elite.

 

[wndshr]

800 guy...


face the true facts sir....you are being recycled! learn to adapt or become extinct. nobody cares what you choose, and nobody cares what you have to say.

good luck

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Duane made references to the race to the bottom and lack of experienced pilots flying. Well if he really wants to do something, he could start a campaign to inform passengers that when they get on some flights the pilots don't always work for the company that is painted on the aircraft, and may have very different experience levels then they assumed.

Well, how about we do that. A major flaw in the Air Line Pilot thinking is ALPA should do this or that....

Why not every pilot do as you suggest. You got 100,000 Air Line Pilots out there...why not educate the passengers... I don't think there is much of a retrun on the effort...

Rather we should be focusing our efforts on legislation. How about a getting senators to sponser bills that protect and promote the Air Line Pilot Profession.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

the harsh reality is this: Airline pilots possess a skill that's very much like a trade; we practice our trade and our employers compensate us with $$$. All of us are expendable, no different from one another. We all dream for the "good old days", the days of Pan Am, Eastern, TWA. But those days are long gone and as much as I hate to admit it I must roll with the punches and change with the times. Right now I still feel being an airline pilot is worth it. The day that I feel it's not worth it I'll pack it up and go sell real estate or be a greeter at Wal Mart but I promise you won't find me on this form blaming my fellow pilots for my woes with disparaging remarks!!!

One reason ALPA isn't considered just a trade union is because of it's Air Safety and Engineering dept. This part of ALPA is quite respectable and they bring something to the table. It has been said ALPA is the conscience of the air line industry. This is the self policing professional facet that ALPA brings and give us a little more repsect than just a trade union. Embrace it or reject it, but it is what it is...

Did you know that ALPA was instrumental in forming the predecessor to the NTSB?

 

[SUNDOWN]

Actually Cuz, you seem clueless. Is 4th year captain pay at Jetblow not $118hr?(4th yr. based on your previous post) Absolutely pathetic! Do you have a contract? Other than the 5 year agreement signed with the company I mean. Did I say anything about you cleaning airplanes? Dumping the lavs? 25 cents per gallon? You seem awfully defensive. I suppose I would as well if I was whoring myself out to the lowest bidder. Enjoy it bro. I know you will, because your expectations are much lower than those of us who busted our asses to earn a degree as well as our flight training. Again, you are as much the enemy as management, probably worse!

800..WHERE did you say you work?

 

[AAflyer]

?????

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Yeah, wages have come down.

It's the American public, politics, and our economic system (national and global) that caused it. You got a hint of the problem when you saw the protests recently on CNN about the war and globalization of the economy. I think the protest was mostly about globalization. Without all the pay cuts (not just airline employees) or job displacements to companies with lower compensation, there would not be so much unrest.

Like ALPA/Duane Worth or not, his politicing for higher paid pilots can't be a bad thing. I just hope he does it in a manner that might do some good. We need to get our message out.

Like others have said, times have changed and we're all trying to make the best of it.



Midnight Mike,

Duane can't say JetBlue pilots are not ALPA because he isn't a JetBlue spokesman? Grow up.

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton try to speak for "their people" all the time. But everyone I know, of all creeds or color, dislike them very much. This is America. People can make public statements about anything they want, as long as they aren't untrue, and its o.k. They don't have to be the "official" spokesman. As long as it qualifies as infotainment the press will print or show it.

 

[zonker]

Yeah, wages have come down.

It's the American public, politics, and our economic system (national and global) that caused it. You got a hint of the problem when you saw the protests recently on CNN about the war and globalization of the economy. I think the protest was mostly about globalization. Without all the pay cuts (not just airline employees) or job displacements to companies with lower compensation, there would not be so much unrest.

Like ALPA/Duane Worth or not, his politicing for higher paid pilots can't be a bad thing. I just hope he does it in a manner that might do some good. We need to get our message out.

Like others have said, times have changed and we're all trying to make the best of it.



Midnight Mike,

Duane can't say JetBlue pilots are not ALPA because he isn't a JetBlue spokesman? Grow up.

Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton try to speak for "their people" all the time. But everyone I know, of all creeds or color, dislike them very much. This is America. People can make public statements about anything they want, as long as they aren't untrue, and its o.k. They don't have to be the "official" spokesman. As long as it qualifies as infotainment the press will print or show it.

Good post. The problem is trying to figure out where the bottom is in this mess. It seems to be on an accelerated pace and nothing is being done to correct the problem.

Someone wrote on here recently that charity from labor will not overcome exorbitant oil and low fares. That's the truth. We've reached the point where "inefficiencies from deregulation" have been worked out and now they're just destroying peoples lives. Infuriating.

 

[shadesofBS]

For twenty years I've watched pilots adjust their perceptions and beliefs to fit their current realities. When they're on reserve - seniority sucks. When they get seniority - furloughs are fine. When they're in the regionals - SCOPE sucks. When they're at the majors - outsourcing sucks. When they're making 100 credit hours in the left seat - the pay system is fine.

What I see on this board and others is a noble attempt by my colleagues to defend Jetblue and its pilots from those who would use us as a punching bag. Pitting our reality and our personal decisions against the reality and personal decisions of others.

A word of advise though: you won't win the credibility card if you denigrate ALPA in the same post that you claim that Jetblue has nothing to do with the problems in the industry.

Many of you offer summary explanations of how ALPA ruined everything and then throw in a line at the end about how pilots didn't ruin the industry. Since ALPA is run at the local level by democratic processes how can we claim in one breath that ALPA is our "demon dujour" and then say that pilots are not?

What Jetblue pilots have to realize is that ALPA is as much a punching bag right now as Jetblue is. It's an easy and convenient way for pilots to feel better about their individual realities. Neither ALPA nor Jetblue can be blamed as the cause of the industries problems.

One thing that IS true is that ALPA and its members have contributed immensely to our profession and to the entire industry. Decades of volunteers have made huge changes to a profession that was headed in a very troubling direction. Now, with our "what have you done for me today" mentallity, it's popular and convenient to blame ALPA or Duane. Simplistic to say the least.

We may have been the latest to give customers rock bottom prices and great emenities but we're not out there improving the piloting profession. Maybe you don't think it's the role of pilots to improve things, but ALPA does. Their cause is pretty clear. Before we start making noble statements about "guiding" the profession back to a respectable state - we need to start with the unwavering belief that pilots are NOT the reason that airlines go bankrupt.

What comes first: the ticket price or the labor cost? Is a $20 transcon ticket fair? When do we stop giving it away? When we rule the world? When everybody else is out of business because they let their workers do the unpardonable and get OLD - will we then raise our price and the pilots of Jetblue can be free to fight for a better wage? Great Karma. So 20 years from now when the brand new version of an LCC comes along and guts Jetblue, will we still be singing the praises of the free market? Let's outsource the 190 and see if we can get the price down to $10 a ticket.

We get angry when people don't get their facts straight about Jetblue or throw out accusations that are completely false and yet some of you turn right around and engage in ALPA/union/legacy bashing. Some of you blame the pilots of legacy carriers for their greed but you completely discount any suggestion that we contribute to the CASM disparity.

I love this job and Jetblue saved my career as my previous airline failed. Jetblue didn't cause it to fail any more than I caused it to fail. It got old and the storms of capitalism beat the crap out of it. I am still however, dedicated to every single building block of this profession that was laid by volunteers and yes - UNIONS. Because WE contributed. I take great exception to people who come along with a brush of their hand and say - it's a new world buddy - get used to it.

You want to be treated fairly? Start by taking a more realistic view of ALPA and the legacies.

Here's a claim that is far more factual than either "Jetblue is the problem" or "ALPA is the problem" : Pilot unions in this country are primarily responsible for the good wages and good working conditions that we all enjoy today. The fact that we are moving backwards cannot be laid at the doorstep of ALPA.

 

[zonker]

Shades,

Couldn't agree more. Excellent post.

 

[8vATE]

Duane made references to the race to the bottom and lack of experienced pilots flying. Well if he really wants to do something, he could start a campaign to inform passengers that when they get on some flights the pilots don't always work for the company that is painted on the aircraft, and may have very different experience levels then they assumed.

Wow...
That was a GREAT point..

I was ALPA for 14 years..
I am NOT anti-union/ALPA..

BUT..

the politics and mistakes of the union are a big problem..

BRAND SCOPE is a huge issue.
we're just going to have a bunch of independent contractors (small jet providers) flying around with other airlines logos on them.

(jetBlue did not go out of house for its EMB190 operation)

I have always felt ALPA needed to put out a full press MEDIA campaign to elevate our exposure/status.

But then two idiots will show up at the jet the next after drinking all night.


One thing I will say....
ALPA has fantastic safety, medical and legal resources.
And the whole globalization/open borders thing worries me.

back to my nap.

 

[Ty Webb]

Hey 800 Dog, I have a college degree, make $150 an hour, have 17 days or more a month off and I am doing just fine. You need to go stay in a Motel 6 sometime and come back to reality.

Too bad your company is going under and you haven't sported wood since Nixon resigned.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Ty said

"Too bad your company is going under and you haven't sported wood since Nixon resigned."

This is a moderated forum, right? Just checking...

 

[FDJ2]

Here's a claim that is far more factual than either "Jetblue is the problem" or "ALPA is the problem" : Pilot unions in this country are primarily responsible for the good wages and good working conditions that we all enjoy today. The fact that we are moving backwards cannot be laid at the doorstep of ALPA.

Outstanding post!!!!

 

[a320drivr]

Amen to that

 

[Ty Webb]

You're joking, right? If something that tame offends you, maybe you should find a different sandbox to play in.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Now, with our "what have you done for me today" mentallity, it's popular and convenient to blame ALPA or Duane. Simplistic to say the least. .

Ignorant at the most...

 

[Dan Roman]

Add my kudos to shades of BS's post. The simple fact is, all airline pilots owe a debt to ALPA. The work done by ALPA over the years has enhanced the profession of every working airline pilot. No matter who you work for, had it not been for ALPA, your job would not be as safe and you would be paid less than what your getting now, union or non union. Are they perfect? Of course not, but it's the height of hypocrisy to cherry pick what you think is wrong with ALPA and not acknowledge all the good they have done for the entire profession.

 

[jbucpt]

fair point dan roman, however, the true question remains; for all the good ALPA has done, does it outweigh all the bad it has done??

case in point:

A. ALPA'S influence when selecting new CEO'S. i.e. UNITED
B. selecting certain MEC CHAIRMEN for contract negotiations.
C. maintaining a metality of "industry leading" when negotiating future contracts, knowing full well company revenue could not support such contracts. i.e. DELTA

whoever writes a book on the current fiscal mess this industry is in, it will very interesting to read how much ALPA (as well as the other unions) paid a part in its downfall.......

 

[Midnight Mike]

when negotiating future contracts, knowing full well company revenue could not support such contracts. i.e. DELTA

whoever writes a book on the current fiscal mess this industry is in, it will very interesting to read how much ALPA (as well as the other unions) paid a part in its downfall.......

Good point, you will not hear to many people admit to this, but, I am quite confident, that your comment will be the fuel for some flamebait, & to me for agreeing with you....

I wonder if there are some of those Delta + 1 bumper stickers still out there floating around?

 

[Dan Roman]

I'm not blindly pro ALPA, they should and often do learn from their mistakes. Just like any good pilot. I also think Rick Dubinsky has been as big a threat to our profession as Frank Lorenzo. Just like business's, their are smart and competant leaders in unions and their are greedy arrogant ones too. I flew for for PEX before Hawaiian, I'm the last guy to throw stones at you guys just because your non-union. Looks to me like Jet Blue is doing a great job and no your not "bringing down the Profession". Your an airline that is succeding because your making some good choices, period. Your pilots seem happy and your growing. Pretty good considering the circumstance of this industry. If the Delta pilots had been more proactive in preserving their company rather than short sightingly just tried to preserve jobs and max salary, I think they would have been in a better place than they are now and saved more jobs. Perhaps their problems are deeper than that, but it seems to me a different approach could have helped. Or it may be they had no other choice, as I'm really not one to judge other pilot groups from afar.BTW, what a joke when anyone compares Jet Blue to PEX. About the only thing you have in common is a hub in the NY area. You guys are way better than PEX was in to many ways to list and a completly different airline.

 

[Dizel8]

"You guys are way better than PEX was in to many ways to list and a completly different airline".

Thank you

 

[wolfpackpilot]

ALPA deserves credit for its historical role in Air Safety improvements too numerous to list. No one will deny this. However when it comes to political and economical arenas, here's the problem:

• The old, “I got mine, you’ll get yours one day” attitude still prevails at the National Level.
• ALPA still can’t see past last week. They continue to miss the ball on a constantly changing industry (modern day problem: Regional Jets and Scope yesterdays problem: 3rd crew compliment).
• ALPA has alienated themselves from key Congressional Lawmakers by their strict party line support of the Democratic Party.
• ALPA has continuously tried to toe the Union party line with a membership that is 180 degrees from the average steel mill worker or truck driver.
• ALPA has completely and totally failed to rally and unify Pilots across all sectors of the industry in support of a standard compensation scale or a standard of living.

While I do believe ALPA will exist in years to come, I don’t believe it will look the same, and several Airlines who are members now, won’t be.