Dual Received in King Air 350

[A Squared]

I know I can't log SIC (see my first post).

Per INSURANCE, the plane cannot fly pax w/o a guy in the right seat, or they would not receive any compensation in the event of a claim.

Thanks though

Yeah, after I posted, I re-read your first post and saw that you had a good handle on that, sorry. Sometimes in a long thread you lose track of exactly who said what. However do I think it was worth addressing tathepilot's comments, as it's pretty clear that he/she has a pretty serious lack of understanding of the regulations.

 

[Art Vandalay]

I know I can't log SIC (see my first post).

Per INSURANCE, the plane cannot fly pax w/o a guy in the right seat, or they would not receive any compensation in the event of a claim.

Thanks though

I used to fly for the school in question when we had the B200, C90, and PA31. If it were me, I would not log much of the 350 time. You cannot act as PIC, and having all of your mulit-time as instruction looks suspect. Too bad they got rid of the B200, because with a little training and emergency descent, you would have been able to log AND act as PIC of that bird and the others.

JH will tell you to log all of it, but I wouldn't do it. You will probably get a different opinion from NL. Good luck, and PM me for more info. I could tell you a lot of stories about the flying we did "at the other end."

Art V.

 

[idratherfly4283]

Topgun-mav, you are an idiot.

 

[350DRIVER]

i have dual in a king air 90. the 350 is fore girls. the 90 is much faster and has more diddicult systems.
if you ever want to make it to the jets you will have to make a step up.

maverick

Priceless...

 

[psysicx]

Is it ever possible to log sic time in a king air.How do fractional and charter companies do it?

 

[paulsalem]

Yea, some king airs (350s) are type certificated for a 2 person crew.

 

[xdashdriver]

All models of Kingair (and the Beech 1900) are Type Certificated for One Pilot. The only time SIC can be logged in a Kingair is for the type of operation. IFR Passenger carrying operations under Part 135 would be the most common example. In order to log SIC in such a manner, you would need to be trained and checked in accordance with the operating company's approved training program for that aircraft. That is how "charter" companies do it. How "fractional" companies do it, I do not know.


Ray

 

[paulsalem]

If we put in wing lockers, or 2 more seats, then it would require an SIC per FAA regs.

 

[xdashdriver]

That an STC?

 

[A Squared]

Is it ever possible to log sic time in a king air.How do fractional and charter companies do it?

THe charter companies do it the way raysalmon described.

The fractionals are subject ot part 91, subpart K, which was established in Sept 03, and my understanding is that Subpart K requires an SIC (although I can't seem to find the requirement) Prior to the establishment of Subpart K, any Fractional SIC logging SIC time in a king air 90, 200, and in most cases a 300/350, was logging bogus flight time. Any non-fractional corporate SIC logging SIC time in a king air 90, 200, and in most cases, 300/350 is logging bogus flight time. If some inspector someday felt like making an issue of the bogus time, the pilot would have very little defense against a violation.

 

[psysicx]

Thats what I was looking for.I know that Flight Options has sics on there king airs.Thanks

 

[F16fixer]

I am in the same boat. "airplane" I was pumping gas at an FBO when I met a corporate pilot who flys a king air 200. The company requires 2 pilots for safety and insurance reasons. They liked me and offered me a job flying right seat. I was worried about how to log the time. I asked an FAA examiner, many different CFI's and I called AOPA for help. The way I log time is by having the ATP that I fly with sign my log book as dual given. Under part 61.167 I believe. (ASA FAR/AIM) I was exicted by the fact that I could earn some cash for the time and get experience flying into big airports doing arrivals and deps and what not. I feel like I have gained some good experience,but I am also worried what the interviewers will say. I'm not sure how much time is too much. Any help?

So if you log all that flight time as dual, are you required to have the "dual giving" pilot sign each entry in your logbook?

How also does this apply to a "dual giving" ATP rated pilot, that doesn't have an MEI license? I always understood that ATP had the right to give dual instruction in an airplane with the instructor ratings, having been covered by the ATP.

Anyone?

 

[aroundtheblock]

f16fixer

I hope that the ATP signing your logbook is also a MEI. That ATP acting as an instructor only works in 121 and 135 operations.

 

[aroundtheblock]

Also, I remember hearing the instructor at Simuflight while I was getting my 350 type something about baggage compartment. If I remember correctly, if the airplane is equipped with baggage compartment seats then that makes it a 2 pilot airplane. He went on to state that even if the seats are not in the plane, but that the plane came from the factory so equipped then it was a 2 pilot airplane. Anyone else heard this 1?

 

[F16fixer]

I think my time is bogus. This makes me sick! They have been doing this for awhile with other people, I'm the only one to dig a little deeper. I guess my 35 hours isn't worth crap.
Thanks for the info even though it hurts.

Luke

 

[F16fixer]

What is a common carrier? I'm looking under 1.1 of the FAR's under the definition of Interstate air transportation

 

[F16fixer]

a chance?

This could be my life saver! Where would I look to find out about this. Do you think it means I could be logging SIC time? And if so is that time worth a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**?

Also, I remember hearing the instructor at Simuflight while I was getting my 350 type something about baggage compartment. If I remember correctly, if the airplane is equipped with baggage compartment seats then that makes it a 2 pilot airplane. He went on to state that even if the seats are not in the plane, but that the plane came from the factory so equipped then it was a 2 pilot airplane. Anyone else heard this 1?

 

[xdashdriver]

Also, I remember hearing the instructor at Simuflight while I was getting my 350 type something about baggage compartment. If I remember correctly, if the airplane is equipped with baggage compartment seats then that makes it a 2 pilot airplane. He went on to state that even if the seats are not in the plane, but that the plane came from the factory so equipped then it was a 2 pilot airplane. Anyone else heard this 1?

It is a lot simpler than that...

Look in the AFM (Section 2 Limitations) for the serial no. of the Kingair 350 you want to log time in and see what it says under "Minimum Flight Crew". Look for any AFM supplements (again, Section 2 Limitations) to see if any additional equipment / seats etc. changes the Minimum Flight Crew Limitation. If nothing is noted in the Supplements about Minimum Flight Crew, then it is still whatever the main Limitations section of the AFM says.

That would satisfy the "type certificated for more than one pilot" provision for logging SIC. The only other way to log SIC is in an operation that is required to have two pilots per FAA regulation. Passenger-carrying IFR operations under Part 135 would be the prime example where aircraft that are not certificated for two pilots require an SIC.

In some operations, the two-pilot requirement can be met by the use of an approved three-axis autopilot, however the operator with such approval is not required to use it if he chooses not to. He may still use a second pilot, and as such, the time is loggable as SIC.

Ray

 

[xdashdriver]

What is a common carrier? I'm looking under 1.1 of the FAR's under the definition of Interstate air transportation

A common carrier is required to be certificated under 14 CFR 119 as a 14 CFR 135 or 14 CFR 121 Air Carrier.

 

[A Squared]

The way I log time is by having the ATP that I fly with sign my log book as dual given. Under part 61.167 I believe.

Lots of potential problens here ... first the biggest problem is for the ATP. I assume that he doesn't have an instructor's certificate, otherwise you wouldn't be citing the 61.167 ATP privileges. Anyway, that reg allows the holder of an ATP to instruct "in air transportation". So are you in "air transportation"? Probably not. The regulation was intended for airline captains to instruct co-pilots without an instructor's certificate, although it desn't specifically say that. So what is "air transportation"?

Part 1 says:

Air transportation means interstate, overseas, or foreign air transportation or the transportation of mail by aircraft.

OK assuming, that you aren't flying mail, to foreign countries or overseas, the only possible way this could qualify is if you are flying to other states ... but "interstate air transportation is further defined in Part 1 as:

Interstate air transportation means the carriage by aircraft of persons or property as a common carrier for compensation or hire, or the carriage of mail by aircraft in commerce:

(1) Between a place in a State or the District of Columbia and another place in another State or the District of Columbia;

(2) Between places in the same State through the airspace over any place outside that State; or

(3) Between places in the same possession of the United States; Whether that commerce moves wholly by aircraft of partly by aircraft and partly by other forms of transportation.

Notice it says: "as a common carrier" That means a part 121, 135 or 129 carrier, which I don't think your operation qualifies.

Definitions of "air transportation" aside, the FAA has started enforcement proceedings against ATP's who have signed endorsements. here's one:

http://www.ntsb.gov/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4817.PDF

You'll notice that the ATP beat the charges, but it was only after an long expensive legal process (by the time your case is being heard by the full board of the NTSB, you've already travelled down a long tough, expensive road.) and in this case, the decision was partly based on the fact that the ATP had been advised by a Designated Examiner that it was legal to do. Notice that the whole process started with the FAA doing an emergency revocation of the ATP's certificate. Does your ATP feel like rolling the dice with his certificate on the line?

Now, aside from the question of whether an ATP can give instruction, let's take a look at the concept of logging dual: In order to log instruction received, you have to receive instruction. Is the captain actually instructing you? Or, are you flying the airplane, and you are logging it as instruction, even though instruction isn't being given?

If you're logging instruction when instructin is not being given, isn't that falsification?

If you really are getting instruction, that raises the question of *why* you are getting instruction. You say that you have 35 hours logged. I think that it's safe to say that a large portion of this time is enroute, on or off the airways, so why do you have 25-30 hours of instruction logged on flying in a straight line? Are you really so inept that you need constant instruction to stay on an airway?
Either way, large quantities of of dual logged looks bad.

On a different issue, you may have not noticed that raysalmon is referring to a King Air 350. I understand that you're flying a 200. I'm not a king air expert, but I've never heard of a configuration of a 200 which would make it a 2 pilot aircraft.