DOT seeks age 60 opinion, young guys speak up

[BoilerUP]

Just 23 and already hate the career you don't even have. You should quit now, you will be really bitter in 20 years. If I have to retire in 15 years, when I turn 60, so be it. Money won't be the problem. I happen to like the company I work for and the job I have. I want the option to keep working. I'll give up my seat to someone who is already miserable and at 23 can't wait to retire. I feel for you choosing the wrong profession.

What? Once again, you aren't making any sense...but thats what you get when you jump to attacking someone that doesn't happen to agree with your point of view.

I don't hate my career; I love my job...but its just that - A JOB. Its not my life's calling, its not the sole reason for my existance, its what I do to collect 2 paychecks a month to pay my bills and save for retirement. I hope to be able to fly a bigger aircraft for a bigger paycheck, and I hope to be there sooner rather than later. Changing the Age 60 rule will prevent me from doing so, at least temporarily.

While being a self-proclaimed airplane nerd who plans on flying up to the point I die, I don't have to have done this for 3 decades to realize I'm not going to want to subject myself to almost 4 decades of TSA bullsh!t, management BOHICAs, being away from my wife and children and eating poorly on the road. If you like that high-stress lifestyle more power to you...but I won't apologize to you or anyone else for not wanting to continue this career beyond my 60th birthday...and that doesn't make me bitter.

If I have to retire in 15 years, when I turn 60, so be it. Money won't be the problem. I happen to like the company I work for and the job I have.

I'm sure 99% the guys whose retirement at Age 60 was a boon to your seniority and career advancement liked their jobs too...

 

[Jim Smyth]

Perspective changes with age...............................and wisdom!

 

[staylow]

All good things must come to an end and age 60 is a good stopping point. If you're a 747-400 captain being forced to retire at 60 and you still need to work to support your family...oops! Remember, "protect yourself at all times."

 

[bubbers44]

EAP. Guess you didn't notice but I am retired at age 60 with no regrets. It has been over three years since I flew an airplane. I was trying to say when I was 35 I felt the 60 year retirement rule was unfair and was sure it would be corrected a long time ago. I think now it will be. Sorry some of you junior guys want to take advantage of the rule to move up. I think that is more selfish than older pilots wanting to keep their jobs. I am happy to be out of this ME, ME, ME industry. I noticed on my last airline job that most pilots voted by looking at their seniority number and optimizing their career.

 

[BoilerUP]

Sorry some of you junior guys want to take advantage of the rule to move up.

Is that not what you did - take advantage of Age 60 to further your career?

I noticed on my last airline job that most pilots voted by looking at their seniority number and optimizing their career.

Is that not what changing Age 60 does for older pilots at the expense of the the younger, junior pilots you scold for being "selfish"?

 

[Quack]

For those of you who don't think this is a safety issue I beg to differ. Maybe not at the mainline level because doing one to two legs a day is not that difficult, but for those of us getting dragged through the mud at the regional level, it is very much a safety issue. I just finished a four day trip with a 59 1/2 yr. old guy, 5-6 legs per day, switching from early mornings to late nights in the middle of the trip, broke aircraft, northeast corridor ALL DAY. The guy could hardly keep up and stay awake. He was very in much of extending the rule, and when I asked why, he simply replyed like many of you have: Age discrimination. Well what will you do when you hit 65? Will you scream age discrimination again and continue to do so until we have to wheel ourselves into the cockpit. Why put yourself through the crap for any longer than you have to. I understand that many people want to recoupe losses suffered through pension losses, pay cuts, ex wives, expensive cars, etc., but THERE IS life after 60. Get a job at home depot, be home every night, babysit the grandkids, go fishing, go hunting, travel, live life. Flying isn't everything...

 

[Flybynite]

Hey boiler when you said you were 23 I should have I should have just ignored you, my fault. You seem to think you know everything and have experienced it all but in reality you haven't done squat. Once again I feel for you for having chosen the wrong profession, you have many miserable years ahead of you.

 

[BoilerUP]

Hey boiler when you said you were 23 I should have I should have just ignored you, my fault. You seem to think you know everything and have experienced it all but in reality you haven't done squat. Once again I feel for you for having chosen the wrong profession, you have many miserable years ahead of you.

Once again, a personal attack toward me based on emotion instead of arguing the point. You've yet to make an Pro-65 argument based on the facts of the matter or challenge the accuracy of anything I'm arguing upon. Have I said anything that isn't factually correct?

I don't think I know everything. I've never claimed as much and in fact, I am far from knowing it all. I'm not miserable now in my career and don't expect to be miserable in the future, but I don't have to be 45 and have worked for 5 airlines to realize that after 37 years of 121 flying, I won't want to do it between the ages of 60 & 65. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

You and everybody else lobbying for Age 60 to change benefitted from those forced to retire at age 60 that came before you, but you fault me for wanting the same benefit. Your hypocrisy is not just blatant & obvious, its disappointing...and I will continue to point that hypocrisy out.

 

[bubbers44]

I didn't become an airline pilot at 23 but did at 35 after a lot of corporate and charter flying. Maybe that is why I understand the long term work most of us have done to finally achieve our goal. I have flown with some military pilots that share your view of your expertise at a young age and feel a cut above us civilian pilots but most civilian pilots have busted their buts to get a chance at the majors and when they get there they feel blessed. Guess you don't feel that way. Good luck, an attitude change will help your career. I always thought those old guys in the left seat were pretty sharp, even when I was young.

 

[Flybynite]

Once again, a personal attack toward me based on emotion instead of arguing the point. You've yet to make an Pro-65 argument based on the facts of the matter or challenge the accuracy of anything I'm arguing upon. Have I said anything that isn't factually correct?

I don't think I know everything. I've never claimed as much and in fact, I am far from knowing it all. I'm not miserable now in my career and don't expect to be miserable in the future, but I don't have to be 45 and have worked for 5 airlines to realize that after 37 years of 121 flying, I won't want to do it between the ages of 60 & 65. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

You and everybody else lobbying for Age 60 to change benefitted from those forced to retire at age 60 that came before you, but you fault me for wanting the same benefit. Your hypocrisy is not just blatant & obvious, its disappointing...and I will continue to point that hypocrisy out.

I see, because you don't want to fly past 60 then no one should. You want to get to the left seat so you can make more money faster and you want it no matter who you trample on the way. Your arguments are all about you and your greed. I told you I can retire at 55 or 60 won't harm me, I'm sure you'll choose not to believe it. I enjoy what I do and want the option to continue, how hard is that to understand? Some day you will grow up and be able to see past tomorrow. At that time you might have a different perspective.

 

[Benhuntn]

I am all over it man...thanks....As a 55 yr old pilot who can barely get out of bed or even walk, has 3 wives, 8 kids and two houses. I don't want any pilots working past age 60 not even in GA. or any other field. I don't want those buzzards falling on my kids or houses...the wives?

 

[BoilerUP]

I guess this thread goes to show that immature emotional rantings are not exclusive to the Regionals board. Disagree over there and I get called "bottomfeeder", disagree here and I get told to "grow up". Intriguing.

STILL no comment about those whose career progression directly benefiited from age 60 and now want the age moved up to 65 because it would be financially beneficial to them. Once again, intriguing...

 

[Flybynite]

STILL no comment about those whose career progression directly benefiited from age 60 and now want the age moved up to 65 because it would be financially beneficial to them. Once again, intriguing...

Nothing I can do to change the injustice to those forced to retire prior to their desires. But you seem intent on trying to ensure that the injustice continues. Please write your elected representatives to voice your concern. Please point out how these SOB's knew the rules when they signed on and are just being greedy trying to work past 60. Hope your elected representatives are under 60.

 

[GCAP]

Who cares about these old farts, they are just selfish and greedy. The only reason why they want the age 60 rule to be changed is that they have nothing else in life to do or need more money for their lost pensions. They dont understand by changing this rule is that what about the impact not only in our fields but other fields around them. See I love it when I hear from major airline pilots saying that we are ruining their flying by flying 70-90 seat jets. When in reality it was them that relaxed the scope close, countless times they have made decisions that have come back to haunt them. This will do exactly the same thing. Thank god that these old farts already have one foot in the grave they have ruined this industry enough!!!!

From time to time I read juvenile horseshii from the low IQ crowd. This missive takes the cake. Please go back to school and get an education. You'll learn neat things like grammar and punctuation, and you might even learn to think for yourself. I'm one of those old farts you speak of and I guarantee you that I could outfly, out fight and out f you any day of the week

 

[Purpledog]

There are minimum and maximum ages for a plethora of jobs in this country. President, military, ATC, pilots...etc. Get over it. The restrictions are in place for the good of the masses, not the individual. Maybe I should whine to my senator b/c I couldn't be president when I was 34. Or better yet, sue, it's the American way.

I have flown with some military pilots that share your view of your expertise at a young age and feel a cut above us civilian pilots but most civilian pilots have busted their buts to get a chance at the majors and when they get there they feel blessed.

I too, believe it or not, as a military pilot, busted my ass to get to my position. However, I'm sure the blessed feeling will wear off after 28 (hopefully not 35 or 37) years of hub turning.

 

[NoJoy]

Very true. If the age 60 rule is overturned, then the pilot is the left seat must not be 60. If they want to fly so bad-ie no $ for retirement, then they can enjoy the right seat for 5 years-and the pay that goes with it. Having two pilots up front older than 60 is a bad idea, and dare I say-unsafe.

 

[Flybynite]

Having two pilots up front older than 60 is a bad idea, and dare I say-unsafe.

Did you come up with this based on all your practical experience in the industry?

 

[Lear70]

Did you come up with this based on all your practical experience in the industry?

I'm certain, along with his M.D. no doubt...

 

[Cyclone]

no perfect law

Age 60 is there to protect us and to protect the public from having pilots too old flying airplanes.

Is age 60 too old? For some hell yes for most hell no.

Change it to 65. You just change the number not the law (it still discriminates against all 65+ year olds).
Is age 65 too old? For some hell yes for some hell no.

Can't they come up with a better law. The argument "age 60 is age discrimination." OK so what...so are all the other age rules tied to employment and there are plenty...so shut up.

The argument "just do what the ICAO does." OK we should do that .... then we can be just like France, Germany, Spain, and all the other role setters in this world. Johnny just jumped off a bridge so here I go mommy.

What I am seeing is no logic...mostly crybaby 55+ year olds trying to get their agenda through...that doesn't necessarily help us or the public. Fact is most of those guys...the 55+ ers are a pain in the rear to fly with. It's not 100% but I do believe the older guys are more set in their ways and definitely more embittered and less fun = less safe too. Just go retire already or find a nice fractional job.

 

[BoilerUP]

Very true. If the age 60 rule is overturned, then the pilot is the left seat must not be 60. If they want to fly so bad-ie no $ for retirement, then they can enjoy the right seat for 5 years-and the pay that goes with it. Having two pilots up front older than 60 is a bad idea, and dare I say-unsafe.

That is actually a decent compromise that would not affect career progression. In years past, over 60 pilots could spend as many years as they wanted on the FE panel, allowing those junior to move up while allowing to top out on the FE scale (over $100/hr at every legacy) to make additional income & retirement. Now, ensure the CA to be under 60 and the FO to be up to 65 and you could provide more retirement funds for older pilots without providing them with a career windfall. I wonder how many Captains would stick around in the right seat if this was an option "for the love of the career".

You know flybynite, you sure seem critical of the background of those that disagree with you, but you've yet to tell us anything about your own personal work history...

 

[Flybynite]

You know flybynite, you sure seem critical of the background of those that disagree with you, but you've yet to tell us anything about your own personal work history...

My work history? I have the seat you want, at a company I'm sure you would love to work for.

I'll offer this piece of advice, I'm sure you won't listen since I'm older than 25, try to stay as anonymous as possible on these boards. Some majors require a recommendation, can be a positive one or a negative one. Make sure that attitude of yours comes out in the interview process, it will be big plus for you.

 

[BoilerUP]

I'm sure you won't listen since I'm older than 25

At least you haven't changed your MO...

Thanks for the advice; it is sound and I do appreciate it. That said, a few people on this board know me (a fair amount at where my 'dream job' is) and I'm 100% confident I won't be negatively judged by them when I ask for recommendations based upon my opinion regarding the Age 60 rule.

Have a nice weekend..

 

[Jim Smyth]

Rules and laws are just that. Made up and put into place for current time frame they serve. The age 60 law went into effect in 1959. It was put into place by Americans CEO to get rid of his trouble maker senior Pilots. No medical facts or studies were used to come up with this number. It was just back doored into law! Fair back then, I think not!

That was 47 years ago. Peoples life expectancies have gone way up since then. The rule needs to change again to fit the current times with more and more people living into there 100's. To tie it into the Social security and Medicare age limits would be the wise thing to do. Is it fair to younger/junior/furloughed Pilots.....NO. Was it fair to my Dads generation of Pilots back in 1959......No. Will in change someday.....Yes. It has to, it is inevitable!

As more benefits are taken away like Pensions, Age to collect Social Security and Medicare, lost/lower wages etc, people will all have to work longer as to not tap into the system so that the money goes farther for those who truly didn't save for retirement. All your turns will come and the smart A$$ comments regarding ex-wives, second houses, fast sports cars, kids education ect, you will all get your turn to make sure you don't get stuck into that same trap. Try flying multiple day trips away from home for 30+ years and see how it effects your family life, marriage, finances. I think the term "walk a mile in my shoes applies here" and you will all get your turn. Good luck in this area and remember that absence doesn't always make the heart grow fonder!

So age 65 is coming to an Airline near you? If not this year maybe next year or the next year after that. It wont be long now and this year is the best chance it has had so far. If/when it changes and you don't like it you can always still leave at 60 if you wish. But I think your tune will change when that time comes.

 

[scarface]

less fun=less safe? I hope this has been brought to the FAAs and NTSBs attention.

 

[Phaedrus]

Attempting to get a reasonable, organized, logical response from the pro-change crowd is akin digging yourself out of a pit. Let it go.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

DOT not accepting dissenting opinions on keeping age 60

Posted on the UAL board by a pilot - easy instructions on how to comment:
Easy way to comment on Age 60
https://dms.dot.gov/submit/
Page one
click continue
Page two
enter docket no 26139
enter operating administration FAA
enter docket existence does exist
enter submitter information
click continue
Page 3
enter your comments
enter submit
If you read the comments, it looks like the pro-change crowd has been able to rally the troops and 'get out the vote.' They are much more organized with APAAD and PPF. It looks like they've been able to send the message to their members, trying to keep it off of the radar screen for us younger pups. Great work, PVB BEACH.

I have followed the above instructions and my comments wanting to keep age 60 as it is has not been posted after three days. And after looking at over 100 of the comments, I find no comments wanting to keep age 60 as it is being posted.

I think the DOT is trying to get only pro change comments.

 

[lostplnetairman]

Read more closely, luckytohaveajob. There are several comments posted in the nine pages of responses that favor keeping the rule as is. There is one that alleges that older pilots with whom he has flown are slow; there is one from an Alaska Capt that alleges that it would be unsafe to change it; there is another that complains about the grueling schedule taking a toll on your health. There are many more.

The latest of the 449 comments is from 10/25. They are all reviewed before posting. So, have a bit of patience in addition to reading more closely before claiming a conspiracy!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Your are right

Read more closely, luckytohaveajob. There are several comments posted in the nine pages of responses that favor keeping the rule as is. There is one that alleges that older pilots with whom he has flown are slow; there is one from an Alaska Capt that alleges that it would be unsafe to change it; there is another that complains about the grueling schedule taking a toll on your health. There are many more.

The latest of the 449 comments is from 10/25. They are all reviewed before posting. So, have a bit of patience in addition to reading more closely before claiming a conspiracy!

Out of the first 234 posts I have found TWO wanting age 60 to remain as it is. It is not a conspiracy just total apathy on the part of those wanting it to remain unchanged.

 

[MECH]

The worst part about the change in the age 60 rule, is 5 more years of no holidays with my family.

 

[ERJFO]

I don't get it. Why would I want to end the career of an experienced pilot just to move up one seniority number.

Unity! (until it serves my purpose)

Alot of 1's add up...