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DOT authorizes Shuttle America/RP Branded Flying

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Captain Morgan said:
Every regional is a cheap sellout, spare me the grief! You should go cry to your mommma.
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Some are cheaper than the others. I'd rather get paid a wage commensurate with the aircraft I'm flying so I can afford to live. I'd rather not participate in the race to the bottom...sooner or later you realize it was a bad idea.
 
kf4amu said:
Some are cheaper than the others. I'd rather get paid a wage commensurate with the aircraft I'm flying so I can afford to live. I'd rather not participate in the race to the bottom...sooner or later you realize it was a bad idea.
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It was a bad idea long ago, when Comair got the first RJ. That was really bad. XJT had the most ERJs as they casted out perfectly good ATRs, Brasilias, and B1900s. I believe CHQ was flying Metros, Saabs, and Jetstreams at that time. So who was it again that was perpetuating the race to the bottom? You lecture and wane about leading contracts but you miss the big picture. The jet is meant for the mainline company. It doesn't belong at a commuter/regional, unless that regional flies on it's own behalf.
 
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Captain Morgan said:
You lecture and wane about leading contracts but you miss the big picture. The jet is meant for the mainline company. It doesn't belong at a commuter/regional, unless that regional flies on it's own behalf.
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I dont lecture or wane? about leading contracts. I just want people to stand up for what they deserve. F/O's flying mainline jets deserve more than topping out at 37k a year. Mesa's pilots deserve a hotel instead of a board in the back of the airplane. Everyone deserves cx pay and block or better.

Foregoing any of that because it will get you to a mainline job quicker is selling out the industry, in my opinion.
 
kf4amu said:
I dont lecture or wane? about leading contracts. I just want people to stand up for what they deserve. F/O's flying mainline jets deserve more than topping out at 37k a year. Mesa's pilots deserve a hotel instead of a board in the back of the airplane. Everyone deserves cx pay and block or better.

Foregoing any of that because it will get you to a mainline job quicker is selling out the industry, in my opinion.
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I understand what you're saying, but I'm looking at it from a different angle. Everyone that knows me or has seen my posts, knows I have a hard on for turboprops. That's what should be flying feed for the mainline partners. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if it wasn't for RJ's. There would be more mainline jobs and the commuters/regionals would be a stepping stone for sure. I agree our F/O pay is not as good as it should be, but we are negotiating at this time and the last time our contract was written there were distractions with the merging of seniority lists and assimilation of pilots from Shuttle America. There were a lot of political things influencing the ability to have the upper hand. This time it's the economic downturn, however I am confident we will come out with better pay and work rules.
 
Captain Morgan said:
I understand what you're saying, but I'm looking at it from a different angle. Everyone that knows me or has seen my posts, knows I have a hard on for turboprops. That's what should be flying feed for the mainline partners. We wouldn't even be having this discussion if it wasn't for RJ's. There would be more mainline jobs and the commuters/regionals would be a stepping stone for sure. I agree our F/O pay is not as good as it should be, but we are negotiating at this time and the last time our contract was written there were distractions with the merging of seniority lists and assimilation of pilots from Shuttle America. There were a lot of political things influencing the ability to have the upper hand. This time it's the economic downturn, however I am confident we will come out with better pay and work rules.
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I agree with your RJ comment.

Your attitude is different than many who seek out the bottom feeders for the "quick upgrade". If the pilot group gets what they should for the job they do and the aircraft they fly, then I dont care how big their company gets, Mesa or RAH included.

I just hate to see regionals who have good work rules/pay shrink because of pilots who are willing to work for peanuts to jump the ladder.
 
CesnaCaptn said:
Bring that $119 down to a 12 year scale and I'll be impressed. Also, if you don't get cost of living adjustments, that $119 is just a carrot. If you're a 5th year captain that $119 will only be worth $85 in 2024.
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We did receive cost of living adjustments for the life of the contract, or should I say up until its amendable date. While the FO scale was erratic and uneven in its yearly increases, the captain payscale went up every october. The increase was about enough to cover general increases in inflation/cost of living. This was in addition to your longevity raise, which we still get.
 
Getting permission to operate without codeshare has served two purposes, none of which results in a new airlines out there this year to undercut the others. First, BB wants another business tool in his bag of tricks. He now has a plan B (more like plan H, he really enjoys mainline money instead of earning it solo) for his two most important certificates (he wants to shrink CHQ , no offense guys). IF push came to shove, RW and S5 could go out and make their own coin. Secondly, and most importantly, BB has demonstrated to his shareholders and investors that the DOT believes in the financial stability of the company. In this current economy, he needs every vote of confidence he can get. He has shown former investors and new investors, along with creditors, that someone other than his own staff believes the airline is on solid financial footing.

In other news, the great Wexford Capital, the company that helped CHQ buy its way into being a jet flying, three headed monster, is reinvesting in RAH. They had bailed about a year and a half ago, as was planned from the inception of their investment. Now that they are contractually clear of RAH, they have stared reinvesting. They hold some serious dough, and have liked BB's vision. The future could get interesting here...
 
kf4amu said:
I agree with your RJ comment.

Your attitude is different than many who seek out the bottom feeders for the "quick upgrade". If the pilot group gets what they should for the job they do and the aircraft they fly, then I dont care how big their company gets, Mesa or RAH included.

I just hate to see regionals who have good work rules/pay shrink because of pilots who are willing to work for peanuts to jump the ladder.
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Thanks. There are many more like me, who understand what's going on and are not just there for the upgrade. Believe me, we all don't wake up at the break of dawn and hit the alarm clock thinking, "who can I screw over today to get ahead?" All I ask is for other groups to have faith, that we are trying to get ahead.
 
Captain Morgan said:
Thanks. There are many more like me, who understand what's going on and are not just there for the upgrade. Believe me, we all don't wake up at the break of dawn and hit the alarm clock thinking, "who can I screw over today to get ahead?" All I ask is for other groups to have faith, that we are trying to get ahead.
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By saying "I can't agree more" on your previous post that you don't want a industry leading contract you ARE screwing over every other company. Did you guys ever think of why the better contracts are losing flying and furloughing? Its because of pilots like you don't also want an industry leading contract and therefore take their flying. You are directly screwing over not only other pilots by taking their jobs because you will do it cheaper, but also are screwing over other pilots who are working to get that industry leading contract. You also are screwing over those mainline pilots, because you make it more and more attractive to farm out flying. Its kinda funny, all the republic guys are on this site blaming mainline pilots for giving up scope, while here RP guys are talking that you don't want an industry leading contract because you wouldn't get to grow and thus take more of those mainline routes in your semi mainline E175's. Do you not see the irony? I don't wish ill will on you guys, but if that is the mentality at RP, then I think a hell of a lot less of you as a group.
 
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king10pin02 said:
we hold DIP for Frontier, if they go under, we get assets. (planes/gates/etc)..im sure we could sell off those assets and recoup any loss. Im sure if Midwest files bk, we would probably be one of their DIP as well.
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Oh yeah, just like when a lender stops paying on their mortgage the bank takes the house... we can't possibly lose!!! Toxic airline backed mortgages. Caveat emptor.
 
king10pin02 said:
Our contract is old, and we have been in negotiations for well over a year. and last thing i want is an "industry leading" contract so we can end up like Comair-Horizon-Xjet....shrinking and unable to be competitive.

and to give you an example..our 190 pay tops out at $119/hr, USairways tops out at $95/hr JetBlue $110/hr (yes i know above 75 hrs for them is 150%)

I want an above AVG contract with above AVG work rules
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Many of you RAH pilots love to tout out this pay difference between you and the majors on the E-190. What you are ignorant of or choose not to mention is that the E-190 is an entry level airframe at Jetblue and US Airways. It is the pinnacle airframe at RAH. Your few bucks more an hour means nothing after 18 years at RAH. At US Airways, after 18 years you may be a widebody F/O making a ton more money. Let's compare apples to apples.

On another note, your F/O pay and total compensation is a complete abhorration in this industry. Hopefully you guys improve on that this time around. Those guys may be sitting in the right seat a while longer than you ever had to.
 
With the info I have, this is part of the reason they decided to up the 175 weights. The cancellation of that, IMHO, is because DAL probably threatened to cancel all of their flying if they went a head with this.
 
n757st said:
By saying "I can't agree more" on your previous post that you don't want a industry leading contract you ARE screwing over every other company. Did you guys ever think of why the better contracts are losing flying and furloughing? Its because of pilots like you don't also want an industry leading contract and therefore take their flying. You are directly screwing over not only other pilots by taking their jobs because you will do it cheaper, but also are screwing over other pilots who are working to get that industry leading contract. You also are screwing over those mainline pilots, because you make it more and more attractive to farm out flying. Its kinda funny, all the republic guys are on this site blaming mainline pilots for giving up scope, while here RP guys are talking that you don't want an industry leading contract because you wouldn't get to grow and thus take more of those mainline routes in your semi mainline E175's. Do you not see the irony? I don't wish ill will on you guys, but if that is the mentality at RP, then I think a hell of a lot less of you as a group.
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Hoffmeister, we are shrinking and furloughed as well. We still have 105 guys and girls on furlough. I think you'd better examine your argument again, it's flawed and somehow I can't help to feel like you are trying to pin the worlds woes on RAH because we sit just a little better than the next guy. Unlike other people on this site, I don't wish ill will on anyone else and I'm doing what I can to better our pilot group, airline, and relations with other groups. I'm sorry you feel you need to shake your fists at someone else for the problems that you seem to have.
 
ACL65PILOT said:
With the info I have, this is part of the reason they decided to up the 175 weights. The cancellation of that, IMHO, is because DAL probably threatened to cancel all of their flying if they went a head with this.
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This is nothing that can be done over night... So I don't think that is why they did it. DAL and BB are in bed some how... S5 will continue to fly for DAL as long as MEH is around.
If MEH goes under, we are now at a different playing feild.

Who knows????
 
Captain Morgan said:
Hoffmeister, we are shrinking and furloughed as well. We still have 105 guys and girls on furlough. I think you'd better examine your argument again, it's flawed and somehow I can't help to feel like you are trying to pin the worlds woes on RAH because we sit just a little better than the next guy. Unlike other people on this site, I don't wish ill will on anyone else and I'm doing what I can to better our pilot group, airline, and relations with other groups. I'm sorry you feel you need to shake your fists at someone else for the problems that you seem to have.
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I'm not sitting here shaking my fists, I am just reacting to the fact that earlier you agreed that all your want is an average contract and average work rules. I am not blaming my problems on you, you did not cause any of the issues really effecting me, but I do work under an industry leading contract, and our contract is not nearly good enough. By accepting an "average" contract you will affect me in 2011 when our contract is up, and will degrade my negotiating power. Every contract should add onto the one before it, by accepting anything less then industry leading you break that cycle, thus perpetuating low pay for first officers, mediocre pay for captains, and giving the majors more reason to farm out larger and larger aircraft. RP guys on this site keep on blaming the mainline pilots for being selfish and giving up scope, thus limiting those jobs. Its ironic that the Mesa pilots, and your talk of wanting only an average contract are doing the exact same thing; you are being selfish and taking an average payscale that will undermine and limit the careers of pilots at airlines that strive for higher and don't want to accept "average", because to be honest, "average" at a regional sucks nut.

Also, to the RP guys that compare their pay to the E190's, maybe the reason that the pay is so low on that aircraft is that they have to now compete against you and your payscales. Again, I have nothing against the RP guys, but hearing that all you want is an average contract boils my blood. Trust me, I work under an "industry leading contract", and I can think of a multitude of contract improvements that could be made, first of all being first officer and captain payscales. I'm not saying reach for the stars, but industry leading would include improved payscales for FO's (in the 40-50 dollar range), slight increases in capt pay, trip rig, higher min day, 14hr max duty day, and 100% DH pay. Getting a couple of these, or at least even focusing on the FO pay and some trip rig issues would go a long way, and I would then call your contract "industry leading".

Morgan, I have nothing against you personally, and if RP walks I will walk with them, but just accepting an average contract makes you look more like Mesa, and lets all face facts, Mesa sux.
 
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n757st said:
I'm not sitting here shaking my fists, I am just reacting to the fact that earlier you agreed that all your want is an average contract and average work rules. I am not blaming my problems on you, you did not cause any of the issues really effecting me, but I do work under an industry leading contract, and our contract is not nearly good enough. By accepting an "average" contract you will affect me in 2011 when our contract is up, and will degrade my negotiating power. Every contract should add onto the one before it, by accepting anything less then industry leading you break that cycle, thus perpetuating low pay for first officers, mediocre pay for captains, and giving the majors more reason to farm out larger and larger aircraft. RP guys on this site keep on blaming the mainline pilots for being selfish and giving up scope, thus limiting those jobs. Its ironic that the Mesa pilots, and your talk of wanting only an average contract are doing the exact same thing; you are being selfish and taking an average payscale that will undermine and limit the careers of pilots at airlines that strive for higher and don't want to accept "average", because to be honest, "average" at a regional sucks nut.

Also, to the RP guys that compare their pay to the E190's, maybe the reason that the pay is so low on that aircraft is that they have to now compete against you and your payscales. Again, I have nothing against the RP guys, but hearing that all you want is an average contract boils my blood. Trust me, I work under an "industry leading contract", and I can think of a multitude of contract improvements that could be made, first of all being first officer and captain payscales. I'm not saying reach for the stars, but industry leading would include improved payscales for FO's (in the 40-50 dollar range), slight increases in capt pay, trip rig, higher min day, 14hr max duty day, and 100% DH pay. Getting a couple of these, or at least even focusing on the FO pay and some trip rig issues would go a long way, and I would then call your contract "industry leading".

Morgan, I have nothing against you personally, and if RP walks I will walk with them, but just accepting an average contract makes you look more like Mesa, and lets all face facts, Mesa sux.
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I'll say it again, I agree with you on 40k-50k, I agree with you on 14hr duty day and 100% dead head pay. I agree with that stuff. What I was saying previously though, is I want to be second best. I want someone to have a contract slightly higher because then our contract won't be ripe for the hacking. That was my point. Believe me I don't want subpar, who does? I just don't want to be the next.
 
king10pin02 said:
we hold DIP for Frontier, if they go under, we get assets. (planes/gates/etc)..im sure we could sell off those assets and recoup any loss. Im sure if Midwest files bk, we would probably be one of their DIP as well.
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You should tally up the assets at F9 sometime. So far your ability to recoup losses SHOULD ride on hoping frontier makes it. RAH has invested in frontier at least 3 times the value of any assets that we have.
 
Captain Morgan said:
I'll say it again, I agree with you on 40k-50k, I agree with you on 14hr duty day and 100% dead head pay. I agree with that stuff. What I was saying previously though, is I want to be second best. I want someone to have a contract slightly higher because then our contract won't be ripe for the hacking. That was my point. Believe me I don't want subpar, who does? I just don't want to be the next.
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exactly, if you look at my previous post, i said "above avg contract" Every regional is a subcontractor and I do not want to priced out of being competitive. I have a lot of friends at Comair, which was im sad to say is a shell of the great airline it once was, and dont want to see that happen to my airline.
 
Why is this such big news? Republic has had this ability for the past few years and I don't remember doing any branded flying.

I love you guys touting your Industry leading contracts.....XJT took 6% pay cut to stay in business, Comair froze pay increases for the HOPE of more A/C(how did that work out for you guys). ASA took what 6 years for a new contract and then was sold to a non-union company??!
 
...Guild....
 
By not wanting an industry leading contract you are openly admitting you don't mind riding someone else coat tails. You will hide behind those that have better contracts and pay and swoop in and take flying from them. RAH has millions in the bank and is making money hand over fist but you don't want to "price your self out of competition." Essentially what you guys have done to midwest is what you are scared of happening to you. Ironic. Its ok for you to come in and do Midwest flying for a fraction of the wages, but god forbid that happen to you. It sickens me that after the emense beating this industry has taken in the past 8 years, there are still those scared to demand adequate wages for equipment size. RAH, XJT, AE, SKW these are no longer stepping stone places to work. The only thing regional about them is the pay. The sooner people stop looking at their regional as a "means to an end" The sooner things may turn around. This industry has to be fixed from the bottom up. The majors can not justify pay restoration as long as us regional guys are willing to do this job for peanuts.
 
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OUPilot01 said:
By not wanting an industry leading contract you are openly admitting you don't mind riding someone else coat tails. You will hide behind those that have better contracts and pay and swoop in and take flying from them. RAH has millions in the bank and is making money hand over fist but you don't want to "price your self out of competition." Essentially what you guys have done to midwest is what you are scared of happening to you. Ironic. Its ok for you to come in and do Midwest flying for a fraction of the wages, but god forbid that happen to you. It sickens me that after the emense beating this industry has taken in the past 8 years, there are still those scared to demand adequate wages for equipment size. RAH, XJT, AE, SKW these are no longer stepping stone places to work. The only thing regional about them is the pay. The sooner people stop looking at their regional as a "means to an end" The sooner things may turn around. This industry has to be fixed from the bottom up. The majors can not justify pay restoration as long as us regional guys are willing to do this job for peanuts.
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I agree fully with this post but now about "what we did to midwest." We didn't do anything TGP and MEH MGT did everything. We can't strike, we have to deal with it.
 

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