Dont like the direction this is going in....

[TCBKING]

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November 4, 2005—In this issue:

[FONT=Helvetica,Verdana,Arial]•[/FONT] Bush Administration Pushes Foreign Ownership of U.S. Airlines[FONT=Helvetica,Verdana,Arial]•[/FONT] Protests and Demonstrations Being Planned[FONT=Helvetica,Verdana,Arial]•[/FONT] Avoiding Avian Flu​

Bush Administration Pushes Foreign Ownership of U.S. Airlines ​

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Yesterday, the Bush administration launched a notice of proposed rulemaking to change the control provision of the law governing foreign ownership and control of U.S. airlines. By attempting this NPRM, the administration is clearly trying to avoid and bypass the role of Congress.
ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, met with senior administration officials yesterday to get an explanation, and along with ALPA's Government Affairs staff, met with many members of Congress and their staff, who had just returned from briefings by the administration.
"Three things are clear," Capt. Woerth said. "First, the principal motivation behind this is to appease the European Union, which wants to clearly own and control U.S. airlines and has made it a condition of continuing bargaining over our U.S. and European Union multilateral trade agreement. Secondly, many members of Congress are very unhappy with the administration's jurisdictional grab or overreach. And third, U.S. airlines themselves are all over the map on whether they support this--or oppose this--or even understand it."
The public comment period will last 60 days, but the amount of time after that before a final rule on an NPRM is issued varies extremely widely--from many months to many years. What will happen or when or if a final rule will be issued after the public comment period is very unclear. ALPA will monitor and report on this crucial issue.

 

[OpenSkies]

This is good news. This is part of the open skies with the EU. This will lead to increased flying for UPS and IPA crews.

 

[WhiteCloud]

This is good news. This is part of the open skies with the EU. This will lead to increased flying for UPS and IPA crews.

Sure, piloted by the less expensive crews from...........

 

[Rock]

"Sure, piloted by the less expensive crews from..........."

Less expensive crews typically equal less experienced crews. Less experienced crews typically equal more aircraft mishaps. More aircraft mishaps equal greatly reduced profits from subsequent lawsuits etc.


Airlines don't set their hiring minimums because they like to hire old guys.

 

[FoxHunter]

Sure, piloted by the less expensive crews from...........

ALPA

 

[furloughfodder]

....and BUSH continues the OUTSOURCING OF AMERICA!

 

[HalinTexas]

Like, the present system is working really well.

Thanks ALPA. :smash: :angryfire Funny how you believe what Worthless says now.

What is fails to mention is that US airlines can buy EU airlines. If "someone" would get on the stick, we could have a world-wide effective pilot certificate instead of all this other crap, increasing job opportunities for some to go abroad.

 

[Mr Hat]

Less expensive crews typically equal less experienced crews. Less experienced crews typically equal more aircraft mishaps. More aircraft mishaps equal greatly reduced profits from subsequent lawsuits etc.

I wish that were true.....

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"What is fails to mention is that US airlines can buy EU airlines. If "someone" would get on the stick, we could have a world-wide effective pilot certificate instead of all this other crap, increasing job opportunities for some to go abroad."


Please.....you think this is going to benefit any pilots in this country in the long run?? Wake up. Cheap foreign labor and the almighty $$ is all this is about. Plus, I doubt foreign airlines will be hiring those "yankee" Americans en masse any time soon. Unlike us, they seem to try and employ their own citizens.


quote:
"More aircraft mishaps equal greatly reduced profits from subsequent lawsuits etc."

Don't kid yourself. Safety will never be a no-go consideration in this. There is an "acceptable" risk. Besides, do you actually think planes are going to start dropping from the skies due to less-experienced crews?? If that were the case, some of the regionals in this country that have been hiring 500 hour pilots would be dropping like flies.


Every 121 pilot out there should be contacting their representatives in DC telling them to vote no on this. Get your family members to do the same.

 

[Sig]

Next up... cabotage?

 

[Regul8r]

quote:
Please.....you think this is going to benefit any pilots in this country in the long run?? Wake up. Cheap foreign labor and the almighty $$ is all this is about.

I absolutely agree w/ JohnDoe.

 

[pilotyip]

No Correlation

"Less expensive crews typically equal less experienced crews. Less experienced crews typically equal more aircraft mishaps. More aircraft mishaps equal greatly reduced profits from subsequent lawsuits etc". Rock, the airlines redefine their competitive hiring minimums on a regular basis. It based upon what is available and how many pilots have to be hired. I believe there is no correlation between experience and safety at the 121 level. Look at AirTran pre 911 a DA-20 Capt. from USA Jet with 3000 hours was a typical new hire, after 911 AirTran wants 500 121 TJ, competitive minimums approaching 5000-6000 hours. They have spotless record with the lower time pilots now flying as Captain. Look at your experience level you were safely operating with probably a total of 500 hours total flight time as a military pilot.</p>

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"Next up... cabotage?"

BINGO!!

I posted a thread in the regional section to try and get their attention on this matter (they seem more interested in who has the hottest flight attendants), and do you know what one of the responses was?? "they are only looking to change foreign ownership laws..." or something like that.

Cabotage is right around the corner from this....don't kid yourself.

 

[Sig]

Cabotage is right around the corner from this....don't kid yourself.

Kid myself or skid myself? That clanging noise was my cheeks when I read the article.

Scary stuff, and rome might be on fire shortly while we fiddle away...

 

[Rock]

Pilotyip, if it is true that there is no correlation between experience and safety (and it might be) than we just lost one of our main justifications for higher wages etc. If greater experience represented by flying hours and actual experience in the cockpit, does not translate to safer, more effective pilots, than airlines have absolutely no reason not to higher inexperienced pilots willing to work for much cheaper wages than the average pilot currently hired by airlines such as FedEx, UPS, Southwest etc. While I agree that hiring minimums must be based in part by what supply is available, there is no reason airlines wouldn't hire cheap available pilots scrambling for hours at FBO's around the country if the long term impact both financially and in safety incidents wasn't adverse to the all important bottomline. I guarantee a 24 year old with no kids would fly for FedEx for a lot less money than my 39 year old butt will. Yet, three years ago FedEx chose me over any number of those young 24 year olds. I was a safer bet,

 

[sandman2122]

Maybe these airlines can find non-ALPA scabs like Foxhunter to fly for them?

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I believe there is no correlation between experience and safety at the 121 level.

Sorry Yip ... but that has got to be one of THE MOST IGNORANT statements I have ever read. Clearly, you have never worked in an airline training center, never reviewed ASAP data, don't read safety bulletins, never been a check airman or even spoken to one.

I suggest you contact Flight Safety Inc. or the FAA and share your thoughts with them. They'll literally bury you with empirical data refuting your ignorance (lack of knowledge) on this subject. (Hint: ever wonder why 1500 hours is the min for an ATP? It relates to this "experience" subject.)

BBB

 

[pilotyip]

beer belly, I was referring to the 121 major airline level, everyone there is well trained by the time they get intothe Captain's seat, and there entry level experience has little to do with the accident rate.

 

[OUT]

Hey Randy, when can I cum and see you again?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

quote:
"Next up... cabotage?"

BINGO!!

I posted a thread in the regional section to try and get their attention on this matter (they seem more interested in who has the hottest flight attendants), and do you know what one of the responses was?? "they are only looking to change foreign ownership laws..." or something like that.

Cabotage is right around the corner from this....don't kid yourself.

If we don't start getting heavily involved in politics we will have no voice. No voice means no position on the issue.

Contribute to ALPA/APA-PAC
Start a Legislative Affairs Committee with your pilot group.

Man this cabatoge is going destroy and when won't even know it...


We need to align the poltiicians to draft legislation that gurantees US Pilot employment....

 

[Clyde]

If we don't start getting heavily involved in politics we will have no voice. No voice means no position on the issue.

Contribute to ALPA/APA-PAC
Start a Legislative Affairs Committee with your pilot group.

Man this cabatoge is going destroy and when won't even know it...


We need to align the poltiicians to draft legislation that gurantees US Pilot employment....

Nobody can align the politicians unless they have some deep, deep pockets. I don't believe ALPA has enough political pull to be effective with this, and even if they did, I personally wouldn't trust them.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nobody can align the politicians unless they have some deep, deep pockets. I don't believe ALPA has enough political pull to be effective with this, and even if they did, I personally wouldn't trust them.

Last year ALPA-PAC had over 1MM to spend on Air Line Pilot Issues. That is with less than 30% of the membership contributing. Our pockets can get deeper. Got $5?


Direct questions.... please answer....

Why doesn't ALPA have enough politcal pull?

Why don't you trust ALPA to push Air Line Pilot issues on CapHill?

 

[TCBKING]

quote:
"Next up... cabotage?"

BINGO!!

I posted a thread in the regional section to try and get their attention on this matter (they seem more interested in who has the hottest flight attendants), and do you know what one of the responses was?? "they are only looking to change foreign ownership laws..." or something like that.

Cabotage is right around the corner from this....don't kid yourself.

John I understand your frustration with this cabotage issue. I hope you dont block all of the regional pilots together. There are alot of immature pilots out there, but rest assured the rest of us are well educated, and are very nervous as to where this is leading. Its the tip of the iceburg and we need to protect our jobs from the bottom up. If there is anything more threatening that should unite all of us to take a stand, I dont know what it is. I want to retire a Mainline pilot, but I wont do it if foreigners are flying our routes for $10 an hour. Foreign ownership is first, I can promise you cabotage is next.

 

[Crash Pad]

Go ahead join a political party. Heck maybe even a Union... Call it the Air Line Pilots Association or ALPA for short. This ship is sailing but it doesn't really matter. New BK contracts are going to decimate this industry. Cabotage and open skies will just put icing on the cake. Carrying PAX is already a dead end deal this open skies thing is going to be the beginning of the cargo pilot decline.

 

[FoxHunter]

If there is anything more threatening that should unite all of us to take a stand, I dont know what it is. I want to retire a Mainline pilot, but I wont do it if foreigners are flying our routes for $10 an hour. Foreign ownership is first, I can promise you cabotage is next.

Where are these foreign pilots going to come from? The only place in the world that has an abundance of pilots is the USA. Ten years ago Cathay Pacific decided to crew their freighters with pilots that were not on their seniority list. Guess where they came to hire the 50 Captains, 50 F/Os, and 50 PFEs for their 747-200 freighters? Who did they go to to find these lower paid pilots? They worked with UPAS, a job service, that happened to be owned by an organization in Herndon, VA.

Pick up a copy of "Flight International" and you will see airlines or crewing services trying to recruit crews for every type transport aircraft. When is the last time you saw this type of ad in the USA?

Cabotage and "Open Sky" is a positive for pilots at both FedEx and UPS. Looking at the state of the passenger industry it would probably be a plus there also.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Where are these foreign pilots going to come from? The only place in the world that has an abundance of pilots is the USA. Ten years ago Cathay Pacific decided to crew their freighters with pilots that were not on their seniority list. Guess where they came to hire the 50 Captains, 50 F/Os, and 50 PFEs for their 747-200 freighters? Who did they go to to find these lower paid pilots? They worked with UPAS, a job service, that happened to be owned by an organization in Herndon, VA.

Cabotage and "Open Sky" is a positive for pilots at both FedEx and UPS. Looking at the state of the passenger industry it would probably be a plus there also.

Interesting and I hope this is the case. When World bought North American I became worried that they would play the 2 pilot groups against each other. I'm not sure if World pilots will fare well or not, but the rumor is they are worried.

With open skies I was thinking the World situation might happen with FedEx or UPS and a future wholly owned subsidiary. If we are indeed cheaper then we have nothing to worry about, except giving growth to another pilot growth. Wouldn't Fred Smith love that kind of bargaining tool? Fred is starting a hub in China. You FedEx guys have trouble getting it manned?

Most likely scenario (within the next 3-5 years)--If the growth and profits keep coming management will not risk angering the pilot group with that type of situation.


After that my crystal ball is too murky.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Less expensive crews typically equal less experienced crews. Less experienced crews typically equal more aircraft mishaps.

How 'bout that American flight that landed in a T-storm in Little Rock? That was the ORD Chief Pilot. Or the American F.O. who stomped on the rudder on that Airbus in JFK in Nov. '01? Or the United crew who nearly caused the worst domestic commercial aviation accident to date when they came 40 feet from hitting the towers on a hill coming out of SFO? Or................

How could you say such a thing? Or were you just trying to be funny?

GP

 

[Rock]

I'm not sure whether or not you are being serious here, so I'll answer you like you are. (if I'm missing attempted sarcasm I apologize in advance). I did a quick Google search for some relevent stats on whether pilot experience is a factor in aircraft mishaps. Here is one stat from 2000. Of 1527 accidents in 2000 in which data exists regarding pilot experience, 82.4% involved pilots with 1000 hours of time OR LESS in the accident aircraft type. Of those, 68.2% had LESS than 200 hours total time.

I'm not sure why there is even a question about whether pilots with more experience tend to be "safer" than pilots with less. Assuming you have considerable experience in the flying world, this shouldn't be a new revelation to you. Certainly if you have any time instructing, you should be capable of observing the difference between pilots with varying degrees of flying experience. You will note in my first post that I said "typically" when referring to the subject at hand. Of course there will be exceptions to any rule, but actual evidence points out very clearly that flying experience has some very direct ties to mishap causes. And generally, more experience results in better judgement and fewer fatal errors.

 

[FoxHunter]

Interesting and I hope this is the case. When World bought North American I became worried that they would play the 2 pilot groups against each other. I'm not sure if World pilots will fare well or not, but the rumor is they are worried.

With open skies I was thinking the World situation might happen with FedEx or UPS and a future wholly owned subsidiary. If we are indeed cheaper then we have nothing to worry about, except giving growth to another pilot growth. Wouldn't Fred Smith love that kind of bargaining tool? Fred is starting a hub in China. You FedEx guys have trouble getting it manned?

Most likely scenario (within the next 3-5 years)--If the growth and profits keep coming management will not risk angering the pilot group with that type of situation.


After that my crystal ball is too murky.

Management could do a lot of things now without cabotage or the open sky program. The management at FedEx probably knows the pilot group and pilots better than the pilots themselves. They shape their views without the emotion pilots put into the issues. When FedEx first announced the Subic flying the story was spread that they were going to use those foreign pilots everone so fears. If you read the book Hijack ou will fine that Calloway sp?, bought the story hook, line, and sinker, and it was one of the things that pushed him over the edge.

 

[pilotyip]

Rock, The stats you quote probably cover the entire world of flying and for that the stats are probably valid. However your stats are not valid for 121-air crew. At the majors almost every pilot has less than a 1000 hours in type when they start. These guys are basically accident free due to screening and training. My original reference was about less experienced flight crewmembers. Like a 3000 hour pilot with 1000 TJ PIC instead of a 6000 hour pilot with 1000 121 TJ PIC