DONT let JETBLUE do this...

[relief tube]

Nothing personal, nothing to start a fire. This is serious, as this could affect us all. Jetblue's been wanting for years to add a couple hours on to the 8 hour limits. Now it looks like they're really pushing for it.

Bring this up with your Jetblue jumpseaters and let us know what they say.
Hopefully this is just a short-lived attempt at nothing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Usatoday.com Monday, October 23, 2006

JetBlue in 'hot water' with FAA, report says​

JetBlue is in "hot water" with regulators after running tests on pilot fatigue "without seeking approval from Federal Aviation Administration headquarters," The Wall Street Journal (subscription required) writes. The paper adds that "thousands of JetBlue Airways passengers became unwitting participants" last year "in a highly unusual test" in which consultants for the airline "outfitted a small number of pilots with devices to measure alertness." The Journal says the carrier was "operating on a green light from lower-level FAA officials," with JetBlue management assigning pilots shifts of up to 11 hours a day in the cockpit. FAA regulations cap pilots at eight hours in the cockpit, according to the Journal. The airline's consultants hoped to show that pilots could fly for periods longer than the FAA cap without showing symptoms of fatigue. But officials at FAA headquarters were not pleased with JetBlue's efforts. The Journal quotes a "high-ranking FAA policy maker" as saying: "We don't allow experiments with passengers on board, period."

 

[ex j-41]

"We don't allow experiments with passengers on board, period."

Ya, Like anyone cares....Legal to start, Legal to finish!

 

[Prop2Jet]

"were not happy until you're unhappy"

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

I have yet to talk to a Jetblue pilot who wants the rule changed.

 

[9rj9]

Dead issue

This was dead before it even started. Now its really dead, keep beating it. Never ever gonna happen.

 

[J32driver]

Holy crap you are slow! This is like 12 months old by now. And JetBlue had proper FAA approval to operate these flights with additional crewmembers involved.

You obviously know NOTHING about this test so shut your pie hole!

 

[PCL_128]

And JetBlue had proper FAA approval to operate these flights with additional crewmembers involved.

The FAA seems to disagree with that assessment. (Hint: your POI isn't able to override the CFRs)

 

[FDJ2]

You obviously know NOTHING about this test so shut your pie hole!

You might want to do a little research on what constitutes "proper" authorization to rewrite the FARs. As for this being a 12 month old story, maybe that's when JBLU conducted their "experiment" with unwitting paying passengers onboard, but it made the front page of the WSJ this weekend.

 

[Prop2Jet]

Top News

JetBlue Has FAA Seeing Red

Tue, 24 Oct '06
Passengers Were Subject To Pilot Experiment

[URL]http://www.aero-news.net/images/content/general/2003/sleeping1a_tn.jpg[/URL]The FAA isn't too happy with JetBlue Airlines these days. The company performed an experiment with volunteer pilots to see how alert they could be for extended hours, with paying passengers blissfully unaware they were part of the research.
The FARs (Federal Aviation Regulations) explicitly prohibit crews from flying more than eight hours in a duty day. The Wall Street Journal reports the unconventional upstart airline had several pilots volunteer to be outfitted with devices to monitor their alertness when working in excess of the FAA-mandated eight hour limit a day.
A California company, Alertness Solutions devised the test, hoping it could sell the idea to federal regulators of "practical strategies [to] improve safety and productivity in our 24-hour society." Pilots flew with an alertness monitoring device for up to eleven hours in the test. JetBlue always had a safety pilot in the cockpit if the guinea pig pilot felt too fatigued to continue.
While the New York FSDO (Flight Standards District Office) approved the test, when the idea hit the brass in Washington, they hit the ceiling.
"We don't allow experiments with passengers on board, period," an FAA official told the Journal.
Of course, if airlines could have their crews fly more than the current limit of eight hours, money could be saved. But with the incidence of pilot fatigue being more of an apparent factor in accidents, it seems unlikely the FAA will consider increasing the length of a crew day.
David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association, said "Passengers don't expect to be test pilots themselves" when they fly on a commercial airliner.
The experiment has ended, with inconclusive results

 

[Prop2Jet]

Who's pie hole r yah gonna eat now?

 

[ReportCanoa]

Was there any brain activity recorded on the last leg?

 

[General Lee]

Holy crap you are slow! This is like 12 months old by now. And JetBlue had proper FAA approval to operate these flights with additional crewmembers involved.

You obviously know NOTHING about this test so shut your pie hole!

You really make it sound like a coverup. Shut your pie hole? We should all be against this type of test. How did your guys do by the way? My buddy over at JB said they did tests on transcon turns and transcons with a day sleep and the allnighter going back later that night. He said the transcon turn went fairly well since it was a mid morning start (8 or 9 am) to LGB, and then an early evening return to JFK. Sounds good if there is no weather problems (like 100kt headwinds every Winter, or Summer Thunderstorms in the NE). But, apparently the transcons with day sleep and allnight return had some horrible results, with pilots having a tough time keeping awake etc. I don't think JB wants to let that side of the story out. We all know about these flights and how hard it is on our bodies, and now maybe the FAA will too.

We have some trips on the 738 that are worth over 9 1/2 hours of pay for one day (a turn from ATL--Barbados), except we use two full crews(4 pilots total) and one crew sits in back while the other flies. That would be too expensive for JB, right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Soverytired]

I thought the funniest part of this whole story was JetBlue saying with a straight face that "if the data supported LESS THAN 8 HOURS of flying" . . .

they'd honor THAT and start flying less.


Puh-lease.

Therein lies the problem of their whole "experiment" anyway . . . they're hardly a neutral observer . . they're an advocate with an agenda to prove.

 

[belchfire]

Perfectly legal in some cases with augmented crews. Not smart maybe, but legal in some cases for duty situations. But were the "monitoring devices" approved for use during takeoff and landing???

 

[dash8driver]

That would be too expensive for JB, right?

Since they're already cleaning the cabins, they could get that 2nd crew to serve drinks too. Maybe JB can apply for a waiver to the need for FA's and just have the pilots do it.

 

[belchfire]

Dash-I just clicked on your link to the race...nice...sweeeeet

 

[jobear]

Uhm I accidently uncorked my pie-hole now I can't stop having HARD FARTS!!!!!

 

[CA1900]

Perfectly legal in some cases with augmented crews.

A third pilot on duty in the jumpseat is not an augmented crew.

 

[FDJ2]

A third pilot on duty in the jumpseat is not an augmented crew.

Excellent point that is lost on many.

 

[FlickerFade]

It's so funny to see how worked up guys get over this 8 hour deal. Cargo and Military pilots fly this stuff every day. I'm not awake any less in a 3 person versus a two person cockpit.

I'd personally like to make guarantee in much fewer days worked per month.

 

[Papps]

It's so funny to see how worked up guys get over this 8 hour deal. Cargo and Military pilots fly this stuff every day. I'm not awake any less in a 3 person versus a two person cockpit.

I'd personally like to make guarantee in much fewer days worked per month.

Well cargo pilots are asleep in the cockpit and military pilots used amphetamines . If the FAA will approve either then im game.

 

[Papps]

P.S about 20 flightinfo'ers are going to go ape crap over that last post so before anyone starts into it, im just joking

 

[SEVEN]

"were not happy until you're unhappy"

Doug Steenlands company motto for all his emploees.

 

[relief tube]

I'd personally like to make guarantee in much fewer days worked per month.

That's the whole point! You must work for Skywest or something because I find it very hard to believe that companies would take this and just let us all have more days off. No, monthly guarantees would go up!!

 

[FlickerFade]

That's the whole point! You must work for Skywest or something because I find it very hard to believe that companies would take this and just let us all have more days off. No, monthly guarantees would go up!!

yeah, i flt at skywest with my 767 type

well 100 hours is the max. when we were doing this with 3 man crews they still had 75 hour guarantee's. so with two or one leg(s) it's not a big deal.

 

[808pilot]

papps that was classic......

 

[FDJ2]

I'd personally like to make guarantee in much fewer days worked per month.

Well, I guess we know your agenda, and it isn't safety.

 

[Turtlesfly]

I talked with a JB guy in the van about this like 9 months ago . . .

. . . it is a very controlled condition - much like a ferry permit for the a/c . . . it's just a west coast turn with very controlled conditions that must be met.

I think we all agree - as some have even pointed out on this board - it's not straight and level at cruise that wears you out. Better to do an effecient 9-hour turn than a 5-leg 6-hour day with no APU, ground stops, etc.

Not that I'm for it - but I do think it is finally maybe the first spark needed to get the FAA to re-examine rest.

A

 

[dash8driver]

yea.. if this passes its just the beginning of the slippery slope. i'm sure it wont be too long until there is another group that feels that they could make more money if they could just get that pesky 100 hour rule changed. before you know it everyone will be working their ass off for less.

isnt it enough that contracts across the board are taking a beating? now we want to erode the only backstop we have that cant be negotiated away or forced on by the company (1113e)?

 

[Turtlesfly]

yea.. if this passes its just the beginning of the slippery slope. i'm sure it wont be too long until there is another group that feels that they could make more money if they could just get that pesky 100 hour rule changed. before you know it everyone will be working their ass off for less.

isnt it enough that contracts across the board are taking a beating? now we want to erode the only backstop we have that cant be negotiated away or forced on by the company (1113e)?

I won't disagree - and that's why I'm not for it. Just like the slippery slope we're watching in the NJ news today with the gay marriage . . . once you start down that path of opening it up to everybody . . .