DONT let JETBLUE do this...

[General Lee]

It's so funny to see how worked up guys get over this 8 hour deal. Cargo and Military pilots fly this stuff every day. I'm not awake any less in a 3 person versus a two person cockpit.

I'd personally like to make guarantee in much fewer days worked per month.

That would be great if you lived at the JFK airport.......Not everyone is a complete stud like yourself. You must be 26 years old and raring to go with "the ladies..." The rest of us usually get tired after one transcon. Now, maybe you would also like to change another rule, like being allowed to marry your sister..... Hey, people in the hills of Kentucky do it, and it's funny how so many "non Kentuckians" get worked up about marrying your sister. Shucks.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CA1900]

. . . it is a very controlled condition - much like a ferry permit for the a/c . . .

I totally agree. And we don't carry passengers on ferry flights either.

 

[General Lee]

I talked with a JB guy in the van about this like 9 months ago . . .

. . . it is a very controlled condition - much like a ferry permit for the a/c . . . it's just a west coast turn with very controlled conditions that must be met.

I think we all agree - as some have even pointed out on this board - it's not straight and level at cruise that wears you out. Better to do an effecient 9-hour turn than a 5-leg 6-hour day with no APU, ground stops, etc.

Not that I'm for it - but I do think it is finally maybe the first spark needed to get the FAA to re-examine rest.

A

Apparently they also tested guys on early morning transcons, followed by a day sleep, and then an allnighter going back East later that night. Those guys did even worse. Maybe there should be a minimum amount of rest to allow for a good sleep. But wait, some senior guys who never do them might protest....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dav8or]

We can't even get 6 hours of flying now in a 12 hour duty day. I would love a 8,9 or 10 hour out and back inside the 14 hour duty day. More days off. But like I said hard enough to find 6 hour days.

 

[dash8driver]

yea..thats great until the next guys get a rule changed like the 100/month so they can make more money. before you know it you'll be working your longer 8-10 hour days for the same # of days you're doing now. be careful what you wish for....

 

[General Lee]

We can't even get 6 hours of flying now in a 12 hour duty day. I would love a 8,9 or 10 hour out and back inside the 14 hour duty day. More days off. But like I said hard enough to find 6 hour days.

Yeah, and next they can create a rule that says you must live within 15 minutes of the airport also. Yeah, that's the ticket. And, after that, then they should create a rule that you MUST live under the final approach course for the airport you must live near...... IF you were able to get home within 15 minutes of your duty out time, then they could start the clock sooner to call you for your next trip, and maybe they could extend the monthly hours to 130 max too....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FlickerFade]

Well, I guess we know your agenda, and it isn't safety.

My whole point is that I FLY THESE SCHEDULES NOW! As do all long haul cargo and Navy/Air Force pilots! It's done safetly every day!

Guys used to fly turns to Hawaii from the mainland and get 80+ hours in 9 days of work a month. Bet they were much better rested than now working 17 days to get the same hours.

Check the reality of what is being flown by US pilots every day. Plus domestic trans con is pretty easy as compared to Europe/Asia, worldwide.

 

[FlickerFade]

Lastly,
All of this is negotiable. I'm just saying that seeing everyone freak out any time this topic is broached is laughable. In certain cases ie: transcon turns, it is a good addition to pilot's quality of life.

 

[Splert]

Well, I guess we know your agenda, and it isn't safety.

8 legs during a 16 hour duty day is common place and you are complaining about the long shot possibility of maybe 2 legs within an actual vs. scheduled 12 hour duty day?

At my old commuter a SAFE schedule had crews running 40 legs in 5 days and a scheduled 14 hours on duty each day with a mix of 18 minute turns and 4 aircraft swaps per day. This same stuff happens everyday all over the country and will not stop.

If safety was your concern then fight to put some tough language in your DALPA contact that mandates when DAL flying is awarded,the connection carrier must have at least the same work rules as DAL (so tired after 1 transcon leg pilots) but that would cost you to much $$$$-- agenda vs. safety my ass!!

You are concerned about passenger safety industry wide, right?

Right now there are hundreds of DEAD-A$$ tired DAL Connection crews flying DAL customers to 1000's of destinations. They will be tired again tomorrow and the next day and the next and the next...

Show me where you fellas are fighting this hard to fix what is currently and acutally happening every single day with your connection carriers flying DAL logo'd aircraft with DAL passengers vs. what probably will not happen.

Hold on I think I heard Comair flying is being award to MESA - but those guys get to sleep in the plane for free in the middle of the night.

Safe vs. your $$$$. Safe lost.

:bawling:

 

[relief tube]

Lastly,
All of this is negotiable. I'm just saying that seeing everyone freak out any time this topic is broached is laughable. In certain cases ie: transcon turns, it is a good addition to pilot's quality of life.

Are listening to anything we're trying to tell you? Wow you must not have much experience with airline mgmt. They are doing this to SAVE MONEY. Saving money doesn't involve hiring more pilots so you can enjoy your "addition to quality of life." It will involve your monthly guarantee as even a lineholder getting close to 100, or maybee they'll petition for a change to that too.

Put down the kool-aid. You'll be at work the same amount of days, just in the cockpit more

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

Inside info that I have says that they have have the results of the study and 8 hours is too much and 7 hours is the most we should do. LOL that is some funny crap but we we would be payed less

 

[Papps]

My whole point is that I FLY THESE SCHEDULES NOW! As do all long haul cargo and Navy/Air Force pilots! It's done safetly every day!

Guys used to fly turns to Hawaii from the mainland and get 80+ hours in 9 days of work a month. Bet they were much better rested than now working 17 days to get the same hours.

Check the reality of what is being flown by US pilots every day. Plus domestic trans con is pretty easy as compared to Europe/Asia, worldwide.

Yeah or just get rid of the duty/flight time restrictions all together, part 91 pilots do that all the time, 24+ hour duty days are fun and productive. if we all work together we can make this career suck even more.

 

[FlickerFade]

It doesn't cost jobs. You fly just the same as guys always did in DC-10's, 747's, L1011's. Pilots were awake just as much, but had better schedules on long haul routes. And guarantee was still 75 hours.

It's not an exception for more than 2 leg days.

Can you understand?! 3 man crews can fly these hours! Pilots are awake just as much!! Are you listening?

 

[FlickerFade]

Are listening to anything we're trying to tell you? Wow you must not have much experience with airline mgmt. They are doing this to SAVE MONEY. Saving money doesn't involve hiring more pilots so you can enjoy your "addition to quality of life." It will involve your monthly guarantee as even a lineholder getting close to 100, or maybee they'll petition for a change to that too.

Put down the kool-aid. You'll be at work the same amount of days, just in the cockpit more

It's been done plenty with 3 man crews rocket scientist! This isn't for you ERJ or CRJ guys, it's for heavy and long haul flying! This is where Jet Blue is trying to apply it.

 

[dash8driver]

It's been done plenty with 3 man crews rocket scientist! This isn't for you ERJ or CRJ guys, it's for heavy and long haul flying! This is where Jet Blue is trying to apply it.

ok..then let them put a 3rd pilot in the plane then.

 

[FlickerFade]

ok..then let them put a 3rd pilot in the plane then.

Does the DC10, 747, or L1011 that fly these schedules just like Jet Blue wants to have a third pilot? NO! The pilots on these planes are awake just as much with way less automation. The only difference is the FO has to do a walk around on an airlbus.

I've flown the 747 and the 767. 767 is easier especially in a domestic environment.

 

[rickair7777]

All of our duty regs need to be revised, they were for DC-3's flying at 9,000'.

I'm not opposed to increasing the daily flight time limit, that could get my weekly flying done sooner so I could go home. H*ll, I don't even need a daily limit...if I'm at work anyway, why not fly and get paid?

We obviously do need a lower duty day, and some rules on circadian disruptions.

But this JB thing is BS, an obvious violation, and those pilots are not going to get improvements in other rules out of this deal...

 

[Papps]

Does the DC10, 747, or L1011 that fly these schedules just like Jet Blue wants to have a third pilot? NO! The pilots on these planes are awake just as much with way less automation. The only difference is the FO has to do a walk around on an airlbus.

I've flown the 747 and the 767. 767 is easier especially in a domestic environment.

Hey im with ya, duty/flight times do need a good looking at these days. I think more flying in 24 hours is safe, but i also think reduced rest and CDO's are dangerous and geared to be convenient for the carriers, not the safety of the flight. I'm pretty sure the public would be scared if they realized how many minor mistakes are taking place when crews are running on less than 8 hours of SLEEP, and to get that you need 10 or more hours of REST. Your talking about QOL and days off, im talking about flipping wrong switches and taking wrong runways. How are you measuring "just as awake".

 

[yaya]

agreed... the interpretation of the FAR's have morphed into the use of reduced rest and cdo's as staffing tooles. Not the original purpose. This needs to be stopped before we change the 8 hour rule.

 

[Papps]

Yeah alot of crews are basically living on reduced rest. With min. comp rest to catch up. Lets worry about the dangerous stuff, and get to days off later. I dont get too dramatic about safety(im not a safety psyco) but i think RR and CDO's are going to kill people. Comp rest dosen't make up for a reduced rest/CDO lifestyle. If they want to screw with duty/flight times they can start here

 

[Papps]

Looks like i killed another thread, my bad

 

[Soverytired]

Inside info that I have says that they have have the results of the study and 8 hours is too much and 7 hours is the most we should do. LOL that is some funny crap but we we would be payed less

Ha ha ha! That IS funny, if true. JetBlue company spokesperson is quoted as saying: "We wanted to find out what the data tells us. If it tells us pilots should fly only six hours a day, we would listen to the data."


I'm thinking they're going to quitely bury THAT quote. The tests done on/by the pilots required active participation on some sort of test to measure response times . . . easily allowing them to skewer the results if they so chose.

I'm thinking they so chose. Good for them.

Yet another reason why these "tests" were COMPLETELY worthless.

 

[Soverytired]

Yeah alot of crews are basically living on reduced rest. With min. comp rest to catch up. Lets worry about the dangerous stuff, and get to days off later. I dont get too dramatic about safety(im not a safety psyco) but i think RR and CDO's are going to kill people. Comp rest dosen't make up for a reduced rest/CDO lifestyle. If they want to screw with duty/flight times they can start here

Couldn't agree more. It's not the 8 hours of flying, its the 16 hours of duty time and the reduced rest at the end that's the killer.