Doctors and pilots

[pilotyip]

There is no comparison, Doctors are knowledge workers, and pilots are skilled workers. Doctors go to school for up to 20 years, work for slave wages until established in practice. Anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can be a pilot, no high school diploma, no college BS degree required, no MD in Medicine like a doctor, just go to a trade school and develop a skill. Pilots unlike Doctors, CPA's and Engineers have no unique abilities that allow them to change jobs and be paid close to their last job. The job can be done by anyone with a Comm/MEL/Inst. High earnings are based upon seniority within a company's pay structure. When you can not live on a pilot’s pay, you go somewhere else where you can get better pay. I have had four non-flying jobs while waiting for a chance to get back into aviation. I have never seen a $100K in my life and I would be happy to work for that. I am still living my dream.

 

[indianboy7]

I think we can compare the two jobs in terms of how difficult they are to get. The washout rate for both is about the same. You have to put in a lot of time, money and effort for both. There are schools which advertise the fast track to people in both industries (the pilot factories for airlines, and the med schools in barbados which let you in as long as you have a pulse and 50 Large). Doctors, unless they are in a very specialized field, make crap for pay their first 5 or 6 years in the industry. They then start making money when they get a new job at larger hospitals (major airlines) or go off on their own (charter, fractionals).

The college, etc. etc. is all irrelevant. Each person in their own profession has gone through the educational requirements for their field. Some doctors I know are the dumbest morons out there, but they're still a doctor. Some pilots I know are the dumbest morons out there (myself included), but we're all still pilots. There are alway a few that slip through the cracks.

To all those people who think that our job is less important or rigorous than any other professional job out there, go pound sand, please. Our skills and experience are not common among the masses. We are specialists in our field. The guy that just got his commercial license with multi rating is NOWHERE near a professional level of experience, and because of that, no one with experience and time is replaceable by just a comm/inst/me licensee.

Now, we as pilots may not think our job is hard or that difficult to attain. However, most doctors I know have the same attitude towards their field. A bunch of pilots speculating on how easy it is to get a doctor's job is pointless. A bunch of doctors speculating on how easy it is to get a pilot's job is just as pointless. This attitude is called pride. It seems to be lost these days, but we (professional pilots) have worked as hard or harder than any doctor out there.

 

[Flying Ninja]

...but we (professional pilots) have worked as hard or harder than any doctor out there.

So you are comparing yourself (a pilot) to doctors despite your argument that the pilot vs. doctor comparison is pointless. I know I went through a lot to get my certificates, albeit not a job, and am walking away from the career because I can't afford to get into it, but to say you worked harder than any doctor out there...well...I remember many nights of consoling on the phone with my doctor friends as they stressed out over the past 10 years from MCAT through residency to think otherwise. When was the last time you heard of a student pilot committing suicide because it was so damn hard?

Anyway, it's still a dumb comparison to make. And that's all I have to say about that...

 

[pilotyip]

indianboy
Our skills and experience are not common among the masses.
Again anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can be a pilot. Look at WWII over 500K trained, they could have done 1M but they did not need them. So much for the uncommon masses. They all had the skill which they were screened for and they all had a desire to serve, not necessarily to fly. If I can learn to fly anyone can learn to fly, and I was landing on an aircraft carrier solo at 125 hours total flight time. Fly because you like to.

 

[GogglesPisano]

I think we can compare the two jobs in terms of how difficult they are to get. The washout rate for both is about the same. You have to put in a lot of time, money and effort for both. There are schools which advertise the fast track to people in both industries (the pilot factories for airlines, and the med schools in barbados which let you in as long as you have a pulse and 50 Large). Doctors, unless they are in a very specialized field, make crap for pay their first 5 or 6 years in the industry. They then start making money when they get a new job at larger hospitals (major airlines) or go off on their own (charter, fractionals).

The college, etc. etc. is all irrelevant. Each person in their own profession has gone through the educational requirements for their field. Some doctors I know are the dumbest morons out there, but they're still a doctor. Some pilots I know are the dumbest morons out there (myself included), but we're all still pilots. There are alway a few that slip through the cracks.

To all those people who think that our job is less important or rigorous than any other professional job out there, go pound sand, please. Our skills and experience are not common among the masses. We are specialists in our field. The guy that just got his commercial license with multi rating is NOWHERE near a professional level of experience, and because of that, no one with experience and time is replaceable by just a comm/inst/me licensee.

Now, we as pilots may not think our job is hard or that difficult to attain. However, most doctors I know have the same attitude towards their field. A bunch of pilots speculating on how easy it is to get a doctor's job is pointless. A bunch of doctors speculating on how easy it is to get a pilot's job is just as pointless. This attitude is called pride. It seems to be lost these days, but we (professional pilots) have worked as hard or harder than any doctor out there.

Hate to burst your bubble, but as many previous posters have stated: $75,000 and 6 months in Florida will make you an airline pilot. It may not be much of a job, but simply by not killing yourself or anyone else you will, within a few years, be a captain of a 70- (90-, 100- .....?) seat jet.

 

[rgd]

STOP comparing us to MDs. Half of us didn't go to college the other half of us only graduated because sports fitness was a major. (yes, I know there are a few exceptions) If you brag to your buddies that all you did in 6 1/2 years of college is drink and F#$% then the closest you'll ever get to med. school is being a cadaver for medical research.

It's completely naive to compare our jobs, which, I hate to burst our bubble, is closer to truck/bus driving- to brain surgery or looking at x-rays or asking someone to cough a few times. Yes, at one time major airline pilots were (past tense) extremely well compensated for their work but it was a more competitive job to get. Kind of like being/becoming a MD. It used to be that the majors hired only from the military thereby causing a artificially low supply of "qualified" pilots and basic laws of supply and demand finish the rest of this story.

Jump forward to today and the job is easier, no celestial navigation for starters, and there are more "qualified" pilots. Everyone can become an airline pilot these days. Being a military flight officer is no longer a requirement so airline pilots are everything from ex cops, to ex-teachers, to ex-infantry soldiers, to 19 year-old flight instructors all increasing the supply of airline pilots eager to get a job "living the dream."

I don't see an end to the increasing supply of airline pilots unless the airlines start requiring 8,000 hrs. jet time AND a PhD degree in engineering to get hired in which case I'd be willing to bet that pay and prestige would go up but I'd be willing to bet that most of us would all be out of a job. aspire

I am glad someone on here has some perspective. Just the medical boards alone that a physician has to pass makes this argument a complete joke. We as pilots can attain all of the knowledge we need to go from PVT to airline pilot in less than a year, with a H.S. diploma, depending on said financial situation. The amount of information a physician is required to know to pass the boards alone takes years and years of training and school, AFTER graduating from college in pre med, which is mostly chemistry, biology, anatomy & physiology and about every math course available. Sorry to burst all you egomaniac's bubbles, but Aspire is right, we are closer to bus drivers than doctors, a lot closer.

 

[indianboy7]

So you are comparing yourself (a pilot) to doctors despite your argument that the pilot vs. doctor comparison is pointless. I know I went through a lot to get my certificates, albeit not a job, and am walking away from the career because I can't afford to get into it, but to say you worked harder than any doctor out there...well...I remember many nights of consoling on the phone with my doctor friends as they stressed out over the past 10 years from MCAT through residency to think otherwise. When was the last time you heard of a student pilot committing suicide because it was so dang hard?

Anyway, it's still a dumb comparison to make. And that's all I have to say about that...

Actually I said that us arguing about doctors and doctors arguing about pilots is pointless. The comparison itself is justified.

I have quite a few friends that have become doctors, and I have had those same phone calls. I also had many conversations and long sessions with students about the same stuff. And yes, I have had a student attempt suicide because of the stress.

I'll say it again, if you do it right, you'll have the same experience and knowledge base as a doctor. If you drop 75 large for your training and then pay someone 25 grand to let you fly at an airline, you're no different than a doctor that goes to those low quality schools in the carribean. They pay large amounts of money, and get their med school done...even if there wasn't a school in the US that would take 'em. They then come back here and practice.....board exams are optional for someone who doesn't care about pride in his profession.....anyone else see similarities yet?

 

[Herman Bloom]

Indianboy,

Foreign medical school graduates must pass the EXACT same board exams as physicians trainined in the US. And I can also assure you that a) it is not that simple to get into a foreign medical school, and b) your options for specialization are somewhat limited when you return to the states (since you are far less competitive for top residency training positions...virtually disqualified from the more competitive fields such as dermatology, ophthamology, orthopedics, neurosurgery). So again, there are essentially NO comparisons.

My BS detector is going off on your convenient claim to have known someone driven to suicide by the rigors of flight school. Spend one week as a third year medical student and you will understand: flight school -- even AIRLINE training -- is a relative cake walk, almost recreational by comparison.

Not that any of this matters. As many have mentioned on this thread, they are different professions. But you seem hell bent on proving that becoming a pilot is "worthy" of a doctor's praise. Who cares, really?

 

[YourPilotFriend]

What is this thread about.......justification of lower pay? Look, we take pennies from each passenger for each mile we fly. A doctor takes hundreds to thousands from each patient they see. So yes a doctor makes a lot more than a pilot. However, it's shear productivity, and if we don't take those few pennies, guess who will.

 

[UCF Aviator]

There is no comparison, Doctors are knowledge workers, and pilots are skilled workers. Doctors go to school for up to 20 years, work for slave wages until established in practice. Anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can be a pilot, no high school diploma, no college BS degree required, no MD in Medicine like a doctor, just go to a trade school and develop a skill. Pilots unlike Doctors, CPA's and Engineers have no unique abilities that allow them to change jobs and be paid close to their last job. The job can be done by anyone with a Comm/MEL/Inst. High earnings are based upon seniority within a company's pay structure. When you can not live on a pilot’s pay, you go somewhere else where you can get better pay. I have had four non-flying jobs while waiting for a chance to get back into aviation. I have never seen a $100K in my life and I would be happy to work for that. I am still living my dream.

Ok, now hold on a second, I think many of you are selling yourselves short. Now we may not be at the level of Doctors, but I believe our skill/knowledge level is atleast close to up there. Now look at it this way, it takes many years of hard work, dedication, studying, passing test after test, working for low wages and taking a pay cuts to become a captain at a major ailrine.
Remember what we do as pilots, may seem easy to us, but that's a biased opinion because many of us have been flying for several years and that is what we know and do every day.
Now here is the way I see it. It takes an average 15 years for a person to go from no flight experience, to the left seat of a major airline. Here we go,... 4 years of college (the majority of major airline pilots have 4 year degrees) 1-2 years of flight school, another 1-2 years of flight instructing as well as other flying jobs (not all of us get a regional job with only 1,000 hours of flight time in a c-172, many of us had to fly charter after flight instructing to get a regional job), 4 years at a regional (if were lucky enough to upgrade in 2 years) and then another 5 years (atleast) to go from right seat at a major airline to left seat at a major. During all of this, pilots are constantly learning new techniques, various aircraft procedures and systems, various far's and company gom material,learning and becoming experts on things that range from high altitude weather to the ins and outs of a turbofan engine. As captains we are tested every 6 months. Now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to do all of this, but it does take a certain individual with a lot of dedication to be successful and move to the top.
So, do you think, after 15 years of learning, hard work, and dedication we only deserve 80-90k a year. We may not deserve what a doctor earns but the 200k that pilots at many major airlines use to make is very fair. The statement that someone said earlier that we as pilots are not much different than truck drivers is completely absurd!!
I believe we create our own reality, meaning that if we as pilots actually believe we are not much different than a truck driver or the union laborer down at the ford plant, then we will paid as such. However, if we can show everyone else that we are trained professionals, experts in our field, work hard and dedicate ourselves to continue learning we will command a much higher salary. In another words, this is a PR campaign, we need to persuade whoever it be (public, government, mgmt, etc) that we are not just laborers, that we are professionals who have dedicated ourselves to our profession and deserve more!!

 

[pilotyip]

UFC, you are out of touch with reality. The pilot’s job in no way can be compared to that of a doctor. You do not need years of training to this job. I go back to the W.W.II experience, one year high school to B-17 Aircraft Commander, flying under conditions that make flying an airplane today look like a walk in the park. A high school graduate who spent $50K at some school in FL could get an entry-level job at an airline at age 19, in five years he is a captain somewhere. Luck and timing have much more to do with success in a flying career than skill and desire. A doctor can make his way on his skill alone; they do not have to rely on lucky breaks. Doctors control their lives; forces outside of a pilot’s control, control pilot’s lives. Because anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can do a pilots job. Fly because you like to

 

[D'Angelo]

Its true anyone with the money can get this job. This job is about memorizing the same procedures over and over til you get it. The job is kind of like being in a time warp. You get up and do the same procedures over and over with small exception. Sometimes you will get abnormal or maybe even an emergency situation but then you use the same memorized response you learned in your training and reinforce for your 6 or 12 month sim check. The only thing that really changes often in this job is the city pairings. Other than that its quite predictable most of the days. This job is about memorizing procedures over and over until they are burned into memory. Do we deserve a good paycheck? Sure everyone thinks they should be well compensated. The problem is there is no way to control the number of applicants. The FAA is happy with the current PTS. You can't stop someone with money from going to a flight school. If you shut out the flight schools then they can just goto a local FBO. Anyone with the money and the will can find their way into this buisness. Getting a job at a major requires luck. The larger the plane the easier it is to fly. So a 777 capt will get paid 200K/yr to barely work at all while someone flying the 737 many legs a day will get paid more like 120K/yr. Part of the problem with pilot pay is the payscale is bent way too far in favor of senior pilots.

 

[UCF Aviator]

UFC, you are out of touch with reality. The pilot’s job in no way can be compared to that of a doctor. You do not need years of training to this job. I go back to the W.W.II experience, one year high school to B-17 Aircraft Commander, flying under conditions that make flying an airplane today look like a walk in the park. A high school graduate who spent $50K at some school in FL could get an entry-level job at an airline at age 19, in five years he is a captain somewhere. Luck and timing have much more to do with success in a flying career than skill and desire. A doctor can make his way on his skill alone; they do not have to rely on lucky breaks. Doctors control their lives; forces outside of a pilot’s control, control pilot’s lives. Because anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can do a pilots job. Fly because you like to

First of all, I never said we were on the same level as a doctor, but did say that we are atleast close. The bottom line is that we deserve more at the major level. Yes, a high school graduate with 50k could get an entry level job at a regional airline. That does'nt mean he will be picked up by a major airline in a few years. It still takes a lot more dedication, learning, and hard work to get to the major level. Again, if we keep acting like anyone can become a pilot, we will be paid as such.

 

[Herman Bloom]

It still takes a lot more dedication, learning, and hard work to get to the major level. Again, if we keep acting like anyone can become a pilot, we will be paid as such.

I agree in principle; but it's not simply a matter of how pilots "keep acting". There are real, tangible reasons for the falling pay. Namely, that our training can be completed quickly and easily (relative to a physician's training). Thus, pilots are easily replaceable and cannot demand higher pay, especially when the companies that we rely on for employment are fighting for financial survival. Doctor's are, at this point in time, nearly all self-employed, or else they work in a small group of co-owners.

Pilots can "act" however they want. But it won't change the fact that they are, on the whole, replaceable (from the perspective of managers). Doctors simply don't have that problem.

 

[Flying Ninja]

If you drop 75 large for your training and then pay someone 25 grand to let you fly at an airline, you're no different than a doctor that goes to those low quality schools in the carribean.

At least you acknowledge that low quality training for a doctor is equivalent to high quality training for a pilot.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

You take about 2 cents from each passenger per mile you fly. There is your pay justification, if you don't like it and want to take 1 penny or maybe even 0.005, we don't need you or want you in this profession. If a doctor could see as many people as we do in a day, he would make millions. Why are actors paid so much? I think a much better comparison is actors to pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

UFC, the high school graduate is logging TJ PIC while doing his degree on line and at age 30 he has 5000 TJ PIC, a college degree and he is first class major material. What better practice is there for a career as a major pilot than flying jets in at a 121-air carrier? You are trying to make this look a lot harder than it really is. In the late 90’s, the TJ PIC was more important than the college degree; he will be making the same as you. Doctors can not practice their trade and go to school on the side. Fly because you like to.

 

[indianboy7]

Indianboy,

Foreign medical school graduates must pass the EXACT same board exams as physicians trainined in the US. And I can also assure you that a) it is not that simple to get into a foreign medical school, and b) your options for specialization are somewhat limited when you return to the states (since you are far less competitive for top residency training positions...virtually disqualified from the more competitive fields such as dermatology, ophthamology, orthopedics, neurosurgery). So again, there are essentially NO comparisons.

My BS detector is going off on your convenient claim to have known someone driven to suicide by the rigors of flight school. Spend one week as a third year medical student and you will understand: flight school -- even AIRLINE training -- is a relative cake walk, almost recreational by comparison.

Not that any of this matters. As many have mentioned on this thread, they are different professions. But you seem hell bent on proving that becoming a pilot is "worthy" of a doctor's praise. Who cares, really?

First of all, I know quite a few people who ended up going to schools in the carribean because they couldn't get into any US medical schools. The medical industry is plagued with the same bottom feeding BS that our industry is faced with. Second, I never mentioned anything about specializing.....those doctors are the top professionals in their field, and have worked very hard for that....I have also seen many doctors practicing without taking their board exams...or at very least moving to a state with easier board exams than where they live. THOSE doctors are the ones who bring down their profession...as are the PILOT who have the same mis-guided lack of dedication to their profession.

As for your BS detector, Please shove it up your ass. You don't live my life, and you weren't there to see how it all transpired. I was this person's instructor and mentor. Things like that hurt everyone involved, and you sir, are a jackass for thinking that your opinion on the events makes you some kind of expert.

as for your third year medical school comment, I have a cousin and two friends at that stage in their medical training. Yes it is difficult, and no one is denying that. But when we get together, they have the similar stress and bitching moments any person in airline training has.


UCF, It's people like you that this industry needs more of. Pilots are professionals with extreme responsibilities. We've all spent countless hours and many dollars becoming professional pilots. To say that we are truck drivers is an insane notion. Pilots should be proud of what they do. We should all realize that we are unique and definitely not a replaceable entity.

/rant over

Now, lets think about how many deaths there are in this country every year due to misdiagnoses and treatment by those extremely smart and well educated and well paid doctors.......I'd say our skills and knowledge are a little more honed than those idiots.....no matter where we went to school....discuss amongst yourselves....i gotta go to work

 

[pilotyip]

We should all realize that we are unique and definitely not a replaceable entity.
For those of us who have gone through the replacement process, you are an entirely replaceable entity when your company no longer needs your skills, and you go back to the bottom of the list at your next company. Not only are we replaceable, your skills are not transferable, because almost anyone can do the job.