Doctors and pilots

[Herman Bloom]

loverobot,

I completely agree that attitude and determination are more important in nearly any endeavor than is inherent ability. I was just pointing out that there are SIGNIFICANTLY more barriers to entry for those wishing to pursue medicine than there are for aspiring pilots. And I think it would be foolish to argue that being an airline pilot is anywhere near as intellectually challenging as training and practicing as a physician.

 

[ohplease!]

Pilots should never stop learning of course, but through the day to day routine, our minds do become dull. All of us are able to make a difference, but not through our profession, thats just reality.

Isn't that why USA Today & SkyMagazine started putting in sudoku?

 

[MusicMan]

How many people do you know that have a full time job doing something else, and then spend lots of money so they can act as doctors for one or two hours a week as a hobby? This is the silliest comparison I've ever heard. People fly because it's fun. It's a hobby for most and people spend a lot of money to do it on the weekends because it makes them feel so good. Practicing medicine and flying are two totally different things.

 

[Herman Bloom]

How many people do you know that have a full time job doing something else, and then spend lots of money so they can act as doctors for one or two hours a week as a hobby? This is the silliest comparison I've ever heard. People fly because it's fun. It's a hobby for most and people spend a lot of money to do it on the weekends because it makes them feel so good. Practicing medicine and flying are two totally different things.

We are talking about PROFESSIONAL pilots here. The comparison was made in response to a post questioning why pilots have been unable to demand more in terms of salary, etc. as compared to physicians. You seem to be implying that you know of many people who work 40 hour weeks on the ground and then "act as airline pilots" for "one or two hours a week."

And not that it matters, but some people do volunteer and spend their free time as EMTs or at free clinics. So yes, "medicine" is a hobby for some.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

We fight for what we get, anybody would be paid nothing if they didn't fight for it including doctors. It has nothing to do with education or anything, flying should of told you that. I once met a guy who owned a gulfstream IV that was a high school drop out. There are professions out their that require more education than others and are paid less.

We WERE once in a luxury business and we WERE paid accordingly. Now the LCC's have turned this into a mass transit system. We have high salaries in this business and people who are willing to do anything to get them. Thats why we have people who are basically willing to work for free.

Eventually, you will go into the hospital, get a GE 3D MRI scan, the computer will diagnose you, and will treat you. There will be no need for a doctor, a young punk wearing a backpack and a lab coat with hair gel and an iPod will push buttons and tell girls he's a doctor.

 

[Herman Bloom]

YourPilotFriend,

Let me reiterate, since you fail to grasp what I keep repeating: We are talking about BARRIERS TO ENTRY into the two professions of medicine and aviation. That's it. I'm not casting aspersions of anyone's level of education. Try reading the thread from the beginning.

As for your comment about the future of "robotic medicine": Don't count on it. You cannot even begin to imagine the complexity of such a "total diagnostic" system, or how expensive it would be. Let me put it this way: if a singel MRI of the head costs $4,500 today, how much do you think the 3D scan (which, by the way, exists already...ask your doctor about it) might run? Hint: tons. Think your insurance company's gonna foot a several-thousand dollar bill for a well visit? Think again.

Do you think that people would fork over 150K for a medical education just to run this amazing supercomputer you speak of? Granted, if compensation stayed consistently high, then yes, they would. That, of course, would never happen. Medical school would have to become very cheap.

Seems clear that you haven't the vaguest clue as to what medicine really entails. Point is, physician salaries are high because a) several and difficult barriers to entry, b) high level of personal liability and even, in some cases, personal risk, and, especially, c) long training period, which further limits supply and certainly cripples any attempts to replace a doctor in any reasonably short period of time.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

How much do you think doctors make while working at a residency, 40K? Trust me, right now it's a lot easier to become a doctor than it is a major airline pilot. I have a degree in mechanical engineering and a masters in industrial engineering. That was 7 years of schooling, and I make ~$50,000 a year. Trust me, my courses were way harder than any doctors course. An engineering solution is approached the same way a doctor makes a diagnosis, except an engineering solution requires more conceptual and critical thinking. Yet I get paid way less. Trust me, getting to a major airline and keeping your job is one of the hardest and most stressful things someone can do. We deserve every penny; wait till you have 10,000 hours and then repost this thread.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Road to becoming a Doc:

This year George Washington University in DC, for example -- a good school but certainly not top 25 -- received over 11,000 applications for 160 slots.

Why isn't there 11,000 slots? Seems to me the university would want to make more money.

 

[Herman Bloom]

Why isn't there 11,000 slots? Seems to me the university would want to make more money.Today 20:09

Schools are not at liberty to decide their class sizes (there are many factors envolved in the accreditation process, including class size vs. patient population, available facilities, etc). I'm sure the schools themselves might relish the chance to charge +30K x 11,000!

 

[Otto Coarsen]

Schools are not at liberty to decide their class sizes (there are many factors envolved in the accreditation process, including class size vs. patient population, available facilities, etc). I'm sure the schools themselves might relish the chance to charge +30K x 11,000!

True... It's not like a pilot factory...

My girlfriend is a nurse... She is currently on a 2 year waiting list to begin an advanced specialization program... Despite the well publicized "Nurse shortage" it still takes 1-3 years of waiting, decent grades, and high grades on entrance exams to even make the short list...

Fortunately, a job is easy to come by after school is finished and the salaries are more than fair.

If I could do it again, I'd think about being a nurse anesthetist (SP?). 6 years of school to sit around, push a plunger, and make 6 figures...

 

[Otto Coarsen]

Actually.....

There are some similarities between Doctors and Pilots: EGO, PRIDE, Determination.

Seriously... they both attract (or create) proud, egomaniacs that work hard and make sacrifices to do what they do....

I can say with certainty that the Doctors I know, admire (and would consider being) a pilot, and the same is true vice versa. They are both fields that are primarily admired because the practitioner's daily duties seem very far removed from things "normal people" do...

That is however where the similarities end. It simply takes different types of people to do each job. The two occupations can not be compared otherwise.

Is it as hard to attain the title "Airline Pilot" as it is "MD"? HELL NO! Any chump can become an airline pilot, sometimes in as few as 2 years!

BUT

I do firmly believe that the same amount of luck/sacrifice/skill/aptitude/fortitude is required to retire a 777 Captain from a Major, or retire a full bird Colonel test pilot from th military as becoming a successful MD.

 

[mesaba2425]

How much do you think doctors make while working at a residency, 40K?

My wife's stipend during her first year of residency was $46,400 plus full family health insurance, a $600/mo housing allowance, PDA and laptop computer.

 

[mesaba2425]

This year George Washington University in DC, for example -- a good school but certainly not top 25 -- received over 11,000 applications for 160 slots.

That's almost a third of all medical school applicants!! I wasn't able to find how many of those received secondary applications and/or interviews. I can't image they interview more than 500 candidates.

The number of people applying to med school has decreased quite a bit since 1995. In 1995, there were 46,586 applicants and in 2005, there were 37,364.

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2005/applicants.pdf

In 2004, 17,662 applicants were accepted to allopathic (MD) medical school out of 35,735 who applied.

 

[Flying Ninja]

"May I have your gun when you are dead?"

Are we really comparing apples to oranges here? Hard work is involved in both endeavors. One is slightly (sarcastic) harder to come by than the other. I'm with Otto Coarsen.

 

[loverobot]

Is it as hard to attain the title "Airline Pilot" as it is "MD"? HELL NO! Any chump can become an airline pilot, sometimes in as few as 2 years!

Depends on how loosely you use the title "Airline Pilot". Regional variety of Airline Pilot? Legacy variety?

Using the Regional variety, I would agree with you. But, then again the Regional variety has only been around a fraction of the time as the Legacy guy.

This regional airline thing is B.S. Its a wart on the profession, anybody disagree with that?

 

[loverobot]

loverobot,

I completely agree that attitude and determination are more important in nearly any endeavor than is inherent ability. I was just pointing out that there are SIGNIFICANTLY more barriers to entry for those wishing to pursue medicine than there are for aspiring pilots. And I think it would be foolish to argue that being an airline pilot is anywhere near as intellectually challenging as training and practicing as a physician.

Its a totaly different skill set, flying vs. medicine. Some doctors make terrible pilots, and I'm sure some pilots would make terrible doctors. I laugh everytime I hear about some dude who was choosing paths at 18, he says to himself "Doctor, or Pilot?" Where does this crap come from, its like an SAT question where you find common links. Somehow they relate, I don't know how-- hence, we have a thread like this.

got to go....Greys Anatomy is on.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

This regional airline thing is B.S. Its a wart on the profession, anybody disagree with that?

I disagree, that is way too nice of a word to describe it. Considering it was the money in this job that put the icing on the cake. Well, the line still stands at a respectable number of seats, lets do everything in our power to keep it that way. It's a mighty good feeling to say "hey look how hard doctors have to work, and we get paid the same." Believe me, doctors fight to keep those high salaries, and we must as well.

 

[pilotyip]

anyone with a certain level of skill and desire can become a pilot without even graduating from high school, becoming a doctor is a completely different case.

 

[Herman Bloom]

Trust me, right now it's a lot easier to become a doctor than it is a major airline pilot. I have a degree in mechanical engineering and a masters in industrial engineering. That was 7 years of schooling, and I make ~$50,000 a year. Trust me, my courses were way harder than any doctors course.

Not sure how much "easier" it is to become, as you stipulated, a "major" airline pilot as compared with becoming a doctor. I do know, however, that there is significantly more LUCK involved with landing that major job as an airline pilot than there is with getting accepted to medical school/being successful as a physician. Timing, for instance, has a lot more to do with getting to a major than it does with getting accepted into medical school. Not that any of this is pertinent to the discussion we were having. Again, you seem unable to grasp the basic gist of this thread.

I am assuming from your statement about the relative difficulty of med school courses vs. engineering courses that you've taken both? I will concede that in some cases (very limited), the engineering work may be more conceptually driven than the basic science courses a medical student must take; but on the whole, I think that the medical courses require much more effort and time to master given the huge volume of material they cover in a given semester. In any case, what does ANY of this have to do with BARRIERS TO ENTRY in to the two fields of medicine and avitaion (or, since it seems important for you to emphasize, engineering?)?

 

[aspire]

STOP comparing us to MDs. Half of us didn't go to college the other half of us only graduated because sports fitness was a major. (yes, I know there are a few exceptions) If you brag to your buddies that all you did in 6 1/2 years of college is drink and F#$% then the closest you'll ever get to med. school is being a cadaver for medical research.

It's completely naive to compare our jobs, which, I hate to burst our bubble, is closer to truck/bus driving- to brain surgery or looking at x-rays or asking someone to cough a few times. Yes, at one time major airline pilots were (past tense) extremely well compensated for their work but it was a more competitive job to get. Kind of like being/becoming a MD. It used to be that the majors hired only from the military thereby causing a artificially low supply of "qualified" pilots and basic laws of supply and demand finish the rest of this story.

Jump forward to today and the job is easier, no celestial navigation for starters, and there are more "qualified" pilots. Everyone can become an airline pilot these days. Being a military flight officer is no longer a requirement so airline pilots are everything from ex cops, to ex-teachers, to ex-infantry soldiers, to 19 year-old flight instructors all increasing the supply of airline pilots eager to get a job "living the dream."

I don't see an end to the increasing supply of airline pilots unless the airlines start requiring 8,000 hrs. jet time AND a PhD degree in engineering to get hired in which case I'd be willing to bet that pay and prestige would go up but I'd be willing to bet that most of us would all be out of a job. aspire