Doctors and pilots

[kc1]

Was reading something interesting the other day: WHile doctors don't have a "Union", they do have the AMercian MEdical Association. One of the AMA's roles is to accredit medical schools, which in turn reduces the supply of doctors as well as increases the quality. REducing the supply has the effect of increasing wages. On the contrary, there are hardly any barriers to entry in becoming an airline pilot, except for money and motivation. The worst pilots almost always end up at the airlines as long as they have enough $ and determination (sometimes as little as 1 year at a pilot factory). If our
union(s) could reduce the supply of pilots while increasing standards we might have a solution to the current situation. (to the detriment of pilot factories and flight schools who thrive on milking the worst students).

 

["Luke"]

Either that, or get the FAA to raise the min time required to fly for the airlines (I would say about 1500 hrs total time). Some of the students wouldn't pursue a carear with the airlines if they had to work their way up to it, and build time by either flight instructing, flying part 135, or military service.

Just a thought.

 

[The_Russian]

Time has nothing to do with it. If it came down to it, pilots would write the time into their logbooks. The FAA should institute a JAA method of examination for pilot certification. Also they should do away with designated examiners. That would be a good start to making the entry into this industry a bit more difficult.

 

[gkrangers]

Whats the JAA way ?

 

[loverobot]

Was reading something interesting the other day: WHile doctors don't have a "Union", they do have the AMercian MEdical Association. One of the AMA's roles is to accredit medical schools, which in turn reduces the supply of doctors as well as increases the quality. REducing the supply has the effect of increasing wages. On the contrary, there are hardly any barriers to entry in becoming an airline pilot, except for money and motivation. The worst pilots almost always end up at the airlines as long as they have enough $ and determination (sometimes as little as 1 year at a pilot factory). If our
union(s) could reduce the supply of pilots while increasing standards we might have a solution to the current situation. (to the detriment of pilot factories and flight schools who thrive on milking the worst students).

Sometimes Pilots are their own worst enemy. They way I see it is that the high paying jobs at the top of the food chain (Widebody Captains) are drawing in more applicants at the bottom. The idea is to "pay your dues", pay for your training, beg, borrow, or steal your way and someday you will be flush with cash. All this stabbing one another to get to the top is just another way of saying "oversupply", which also means "lower pay".

Flight schools, and the public need to know that the majority of Pilots make very little money, while only very few make a lot of money. The truth is out there, it usually takes about 6 months as a new hire at a regional to see it.

 

[flyboydh1]

I hate to say this about my own profession, but the journey to become an airline pilot is the means to an end. Once we make it, thats it. What more is there? We do the same thing each and every day, always complaining about our conditions and yet not willing to improve ourselves as meaningful individuals. Pilots are selfish. Always only considerned for only one thing. Us. We reach our goal, and then we stop, forgetting that life is much more than what we do. We are so small. I've made it a point in my life to become more than just this, and I think every other airline guy/gal should do the same. God knows we have the smarts to do it. Some have, but most haven't. The reason I say this, in refute to the argument about doctor's and the AMA, is that these people make it there life to protect human life, constantly engaging in emotionally draining situations regarding life and death, many times right before there own eyes. Yes, we do protect our people in the back, but we never really connect...engage. Put the two careers in perspective. Constantly changing environments require constant desire to learn, to become better. That's what doctors do, and they are held to a higher standard for good reason. They have to be. Pilots should never stop learning of course, but through the day to day routine, our minds do become dull. All of us are able to make a difference, but not through our profession, thats just reality.

 

[kc1]

An oversupply of pilots is really in the best interest of 2 groups: airline management and the flight training industry. It's a match made in heaven: airlines want cheap pilots, flight school want students willing to pay up, and clueless up and coming pilots want to buy their way from 0 time to the right seat in as short a period of time as possible. The only things that can put a stop to this crap is either union actions or economics (i.e. pilots get paid so poorly that nobody wants to do it). I think the FAA tends to be on the side of management and the flight training industry, which reduces safety (the FAA is hypocritical).

 

[kc1]

I hate to say this about my own profession, but the journey to become an airline pilot is the means to an end. Once we make it, thats it. What more is there? We do the same thing each and every day, always complaining about our conditions and yet not willing to improve ourselves as meaningful individuals. Pilots are selfish. Always only considerned for only one thing. Us. We reach our goal, and then we stop, forgetting that life is much more than what we do. We are so small. I've made it a point in my life to become more than just this, and I think every other airline guy/gal should do the same. God knows we have the smarts to do it. Some have, but most haven't. The reason I say this, in refute to the argument about doctor's and the AMA, is that these people make it there life to protect human life, constantly engaging in emotionally draining situations regarding life and death, many times right before there own eyes. Yes, we do protect our people in the back, but we never really connect...engage. Put the two careers in perspective. Constantly changing environments require constant desire to learn, to become better. That's what doctors do, and they are held to a higher standard for good reason. They have to be. Pilots should never stop learning of course, but through the day to day routine, our minds do become dull. All of us are able to make a difference, but not through our profession, thats just reality.

I totally agree, doctors are on a different level. But really, I think a lot of unions take actions to limit the supply of workers, simply in their own best interest. That is an important role that many unions play. And in aviation, there is a safety aspect as well.

 

[loverobot]

What ever happened to the oath? There sure seems to be a lot of sick people around, and not enough Doctors to treat everyone. You mean the AMA is letting people suffer and die in the name of higher pay for its constituents?? What a bunch of barbarians.

Meanwhile, the AOPA is hanging up a sign that says "Learn to Fly Here". They are lobbying the government for a new variety of Pilots license to make it easier for the "everday man" to fly an airplane. I wonder what the relationship is between AOPA and ALPA??

 

[mesaba2425]

WHile doctors don't have a "Union", they do have the AMercian MEdical Association. One of the AMA's roles is to accredit medical schools

Actually the LCME accredits medical schools.

On the contrary, there are hardly any barriers to entry in becoming an airline pilot, except for money and motivation.

There aren't many barriers to becoming a doctor either. All you have to do is take the required undergrad courses, get good grades, take the MCAT and apply to med school. Everyone has the opportunity.

 

[LXJ31]

Actually the LCME accredits medical schools.




There aren't many barriers to becoming a doctor either. All you have to do is take the required undergrad courses, get good grades, take the MCAT and apply to med school. Everyone has the opportunity.

While this statement is true, the crux of the issue is that the supply of doctors is regulated through several methods that are not related to market forces.



For background on this, check this http://www.aamc.org/workforce/ and read the .pdf. It starts out by saying "In the 1980s and 1990s, workforce analysts and public policymakers, with few exceptions, predicted the United States would experience a substantial excess of physicians by the beginning of the 21st Century. In light of these analytical studies, the AAMC and other national organizations recommended steps to reduce physician supply in order to obviate the predicted surplus."

 

[FN FAL]

They are lobbying the government for a new variety of Pilots license to make it easier for the "everday man" to fly an airplane.

Variety? Is that anything like a cornucopia or a veritable plethora of licenses?

 

[LXJ31]

Would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?

 

[Cadillac]

Si, El Guapo. You have a plethora of pinatas.

 

[freeflyer14]

It's a tupman 601...I flew one in little Neddy goes to war....:laugh:

 

[kc1]

There aren't many barriers to becoming a doctor either. All you have to do is take the required undergrad courses, get good grades, take the MCAT and apply to med school. Everyone has the opportunity.

There are a lot more barriers to become a doctor than a pilot. As a doctor, you need to do well in school in difficult courses, take the MCAT, which I've heard isn't easy, and then be accepted into med school based on your achievements and performance. To fly, you just keep pumping money in and getting your ratings, getting second chances on failures if necessary. And when you have the minumum experience requirements, you will usually find a job regardless of your past performance (especially if you are from a direct track program etc.)

 

[Herman Bloom]

Road to becoming a Doc:

Four years of undergrad (you must excel in difficult science classes), take the MCAT (gruelling: 8 to 10 hours, and it's curved nationally, so you are competing against every aspiring applicant in the courntry..kids from harvard, yale, duke, mit, etc), good extra curricular experiences (you need to distinguish yourself here: prefferably doing research, working in hospitals, volunteer leadership, etc), and in the end your chances are slim at best. This year George Washington University in DC, for example -- a good school but certainly not top 25 -- received over 11,000 applications for 160 slots. So then its off to med school: four very difficult years, during which you must compete with your classmates for grades, work ~70 to 80 hour weeks in the hospital (during third and fourth year rotations). Then apply for a residency position in the specialty of your choice (Medicine, Surgery and Surgical subspecialties like Ophthalmology, Orthopaedics, Neuro, etc). For competitive specialties (like the ones just mentioned), it helps to be near the top of your class. Then start training in your specialty: at least 3 GRUELLING years, probably more like 5 to 8, and you are paid 40K to work 80 hour weeks (at a minimum), all the while getting pimped by your attendings. Make it through all of that, and you get to go out and practice in an increasingly challenging environment, one wherein your job is constatly at stake, you have to fight with insurance companies/medicare to get paid, etc......

Road to becoming an airline pilot:

Honestly, we all know it is NOTHING compared to the above. Not even close. It's apples and oranges. Can be done in a couple of years.

 

[loverobot]

Maybe not. I know one guy who became a Dr., he's dumb as a sack of hammers, but he sure tried hard. All that stuff about 80 hrs a week, top of the class, studying like mad, sure nobody says its easy-- but it aint impossible.

Reminds of an Air Force Acad. Grad telling everybody how they are the chosen ones, when in reality their really no better then the next guy. Gimme a break.

Unfortunatley, most folks figure out that all those stories about how impossible everything is a little too late. Just about the time they have busted their ass framing houses 80 hrs a week, laying concrete 80 hrs a week, washing dishes 80 hrs a week-- Sometimes for a helluva lot less then 40k a year. Its more about attitude then it is about ability. Shoulda, woulda, coulda-- its true.

 

[Tyro]

Was reading something interesting the other day: WHile doctors don't have a "Union", they do have the AMercian MEdical Association. One of the AMA's roles is to accredit medical schools, which in turn reduces the supply of doctors as well as increases the quality. REducing the supply has the effect of increasing wages.

AMA does not accredit medical schools. (See Mesaba 2425’s note.)

Class sizes are governed by the facilities available. There are regulations concerning what resources must be available for each medical student. There is no conspiracy to limit seats.

The washout rate in medical school is approximately 25%. This is part of the problem. It is quite challenging you know.

What ever happened to the oath? There sure seems to be a lot of sick people around, and not enough Doctors to treat everyone. You mean the AMA is letting people suffer and die in the name of higher pay for its constituents?? What a bunch of barbarians.

Remember, physicians are only advisors. We Americans need to learn to take care of ourselves. No physician can possibly counter smoking, sexual indiscretion, alcohol abuse, overeating, sedentary lifestyle. Each of us is responsible for our own health. But, of course, we have learned to conveniently blame others for our own lack of discipline and for our own poor decisions. Hey that’s America.

There are some parallels between the pilot and the physician. The same “type” of individual is attracted to each. Beyond this, medicine is completely different. Medicine is a Discipline and has no comparison with the aviation industry. The only similarity is that the same pressures are affecting both. The pressures turning professional aviators into paupers are adversely affecting medicine also. This latter is what is limiting access to health care. Not the doctor, sir: YOUR insurance plan. So - do chew on that please.

It’s all George’s fault, you know. J

 

[FN FAL]

lurch!