Do passengers know who is flying for GA?

[Vandal]

Was watching a Gulfstream FO greet passengers at the doorway of his Beech1900 today at PNS (after overhearing him and his capt in the bathroom discussing different ways to pick up a clearance...) and was wondering if the passengers had any idea who was flying them around. The dude only has like 100 or so hours right?

 

[chperplt]

I don't think passengers have any idea, nor do they really want to have an idea.

 

[Jet_Driver]

I must rant

Okay y'all, I must to rant.... There is nothing worse than a pimple faced kid right out of highschool or college who spent 9 months in Florida getting his/her ratings (paid by mommy & daddy), instructs more kids of the same background for 9 months who comes away with 1000TT 100ME equating to ZERO EXPERIENCE and gets hired by an airline 1.5 year after stepping into his/her first airplane thinking,"Hey this will be a fun way to blow mommy & daddy's money." These kinds probably never had a job before either. People like this gain no experience dodging TCU wearing a hood. How many of these types plodded through hard IFR at night in ice, landing in stiff crosswinds with low cielings, low visibility, or riding wake turbulence from a 747-400 all the way down from the marker before flying an airliner full of folks? Fewer than you might think. I worked 8 years to get my first shot at flying 121. Dang was I prepared though. I cringe at the thought of these kinds of people flying Quadra Puppies and Jungle Jets full of Pax.
The truth is, Airlines are cheap, and these unsuspecting idiots are easy prey. They contribute to the degredation of our careers and wages. They aren't sweating $19,000 per year internship wage. Mommy & Daddy will subsidize their living expenses.
THINK ABOUT IT

Signed,
Cringing in Cleveland

 

[Detroitpilot22]

i could not agree with you more

 

[ATRedneck]

I worked 8 years to get my first shot at flying 121. Dang was I prepared though. I cringe at the thought of these kinds of people flying Quadra Puppies and Jungle Jets full of Pax.

Kinda makes you want to beat your head against a wall, doesn't it?

I've had some FOs who started taking lessons after I was already a Captain. Some of them were still in high school then (dang, I'm getting old!) but even so, high school to an airline in like five years? These guys probably never even smoked a joint in college because they were too busy flying!


The ones that really get me are the ones who do this as a hobby. You know they type, they made their money in software or sales or whatever, and then decide to do this because it might be "neat," like it's come do this or buy a Corvette when mid-life sets in.

I mean, I've been flying for half my life and busted my butt to get here, and some folks just seem to take the whole thing for granted.

 

[328dude]

These guys probably never even smoked a joint in college because they were too busy flying!

Hmmm, maybe I should have flown more.

 

[Standby 1]

Okay y'all, I must to rant.... There is nothing worse than a pimple faced kid right out of highschool or college who spent 9 months in Florida getting his/her ratings (paid by mommy & daddy), instructs more kids of the same background for 9 months who comes away with 1000TT 100ME equating to ZERO EXPERIENCE and gets hired by an airline 1.5 year after stepping into his/her first airplane thinking,"Hey this will be a fun way to blow mommy & daddy's money." These kinds probably never had a job before either. People like this gain no experience dodging TCU wearing a hood. How many of these types plodded through hard IFR at night in ice, landing in stiff crosswinds with low cielings, low visibility, or riding wake turbulence from a 747-400 all the way down from the marker before flying an airliner full of folks? Fewer than you might think. I worked 8 years to get my first shot at flying 121. Dang was I prepared though. I cringe at the thought of these kinds of people flying Quadra Puppies and Jungle Jets full of Pax.
The truth is, Airlines are cheap, and these unsuspecting idiots are easy prey. They contribute to the degredation of our careers and wages. They aren't sweating $19,000 per year internship wage. Mommy & Daddy will subsidize their living expenses.
THINK ABOUT IT

Signed,
Cringing in Cleveland

Great post!

 

[Doug Parker]

Lets not forget about the high quality CoEx Pay-for-training pilots that were hired in the late 90s/early 2000 - wasn't it like 250 hrs, $10k, and a pulse............

 

[capt. megadeth]

Was watching a Gulfstream FO greet passengers at the doorway of his Beech1900 today at PNS (after overhearing him and his capt in the bathroom discussing different ways to pick up a clearance...) and was wondering if the passengers had any idea who was flying them around. The dude only has like 100 or so hours right?

Screw the pax....who cares what they know or think. It's not like they are acutally paying anything to fly these days.

 

[SouthTex]

I couldn't agree more. It is total crap that minimums at such flagship carriers as ASA have plunged to 600 TT and 100 Multi. Pristine carriers like ASA, Express Jet and Mesa are not starter airlines they are flagships of the industry. When I started at a regional I had 8000TT and 6000 Multi and 4000 PIC turbine... I also earned two type ratings... no I didn't pay for those types like the inexperienced pukes at Southwest. I flew out of Taiwan under a foreign indentured servant program. You would think the airlines would have learned there lesson from Great Lakes who in the past hired pilots with 300 hours... There accident rate went through the roof...

Let me also say I was offered jobs at regionals when I had 1000TT... I turned them all down because I didn't feel comfortable with my skill level. Now that I've finally made it to a regional I can say I'm glad I waited. The demand and skill required on a daily bases to fly a CRJ from Atlanta to MSP is unimaginable.

I only wish todays young aviators would stop falling for the quick entry into a regional job. It's like sex... Just because you're fully qualified doesn't mean you should sleep with every attractive woman that you can.

Scared to Death!!!

 

[capt. megadeth]

I couldn't agree more. It is total crap that minimums at such flagship carriers as ASA have plunged to 600 TT and 100 Multi. Pristine carriers like ASA, Express Jet and Mesa are not starter airlines they are flagships of the industry. When I started at a regional I had 8000TT and 6000 Multi and 4000 PIC turbine... I also earned two type ratings... no I didn't pay for those types like the inexperienced pukes at Southwest. I flew out of Taiwan under a foreign indentured servant program. You would think the airlines would have learned there lesson from Great Lakes who in the past hired pilots with 300 hours... There accident rate went through the roof...

Let me also say I was offered jobs at regionals when I had 1000TT... I turned them all down because I didn't feel comfortable with my skill level. Now that I've finally made it to a regional I can say I'm glad I waited. The demand and skill required on a daily bases to fly a CRJ from Atlanta to MSP is unimaginable.

I agree with you to a point....BUT... My fiancee got hired at my previous commuter with 300 and 17 multi. I flew with him a lot when he started. He did great. He is one of the best pilots I have ever flown with......certainly better than A LOT of pilots there that had a few thousand hours. I think a lot of it has to do with maturity NOT total flight time. My previous commuter was around for nearly 12 years, was built on 300 hour pilots and never had an accident.

"The demand and skill required on a daily bases to fly a CRJ from Atlanta to MSP is unimaginable."

There is a lot of demand and skill required but I think you are being just slightly dramatic here. Guys/gals in Europe go from ZERO time to a 737. Guys/gals in Asia go right into a 747. I wouldn't call the demand and skill "unimaginable".

Also, I would hardly call the pilots at Southwest inexperienced. They have a lot of great, very experienced pilots.

One more thing, while I can respect you turning down a commuter job because you didn't feel comfortable, but with 8000 hours, you should be at a major airline, not a commuter at this point. Being at a commuter with your experience will only stress you out since most of the captains there probably have 1/3 your total time. Also, if commuters want more experience, they have to giddy up with the pay.

 

[chrisdahut24]

I couldn't agree more. It is total crap that minimums at such flagship carriers as ASA have plunged to 600 TT and 100 Multi. Pristine carriers like ASA, Express Jet and Mesa are not starter airlines they are flagships of the industry. When I started at a regional I had 8000TT and 6000 Multi and 4000 PIC turbine... I also earned two type ratings... no I didn't pay for those types like the inexperienced pukes at Southwest. I flew out of Taiwan under a foreign indentured servant program. You would think the airlines would have learned there lesson from Great Lakes who in the past hired pilots with 300 hours... There accident rate went through the roof...

Let me also say I was offered jobs at regionals when I had 1000TT... I turned them all down because I didn't feel comfortable with my skill level. Now that I've finally made it to a regional I can say I'm glad I waited. The demand and skill required on a daily bases to fly a CRJ from Atlanta to MSP is unimaginable.

I agree with you to a point....BUT... My fiancee got hired at my previous commuter with 300 and 17 multi. I flew with him a lot when he started. He did great. He is one of the best pilots I have ever flown with......certainly better than A LOT of pilots there that had a few thousand hours. I think a lot of it has to do with maturity NOT total flight time. My previous commuter was around for nearly 12 years, was built on 300 hour pilots and never had an accident.

"The demand and skill required on a daily bases to fly a CRJ from Atlanta to MSP is unimaginable."

There is a lot of demand and skill required but I think you are being just slightly dramatic here. Guys/gals in Europe go from ZERO time to a 737. Guys/gals in Asia go right into a 747. I wouldn't call the demand and skill "unimaginable".

Also, I would hardly call the pilots at Southwest inexperienced. They have a lot of great, very experienced pilots.

One more thing, while I can respect you turning down a commuter job because you didn't feel comfortable, but with 8000 hours, you should be at a major airline, not a commuter at this point. Being at a commuter with your experience will only stress you out since most of the captains there probably have 1/3 your total time. Also, if commuters want more experience, they have to giddy up with the pay.

*let me rephrase that*

I don't think I've seen a psot dripping with so much sarcasm before...please don't tell me your response was serious?

 

[Snakum]

Let me also say I was offered jobs at regionals when I had 1000TT... I turned them all down because I didn't feel comfortable with my skill level.

After reading the whole post, I was like ... "WTF!?"

Then my Sarcasm Detector finally kicked on and I was FOFLMFAO!

Capt. MegaBabe ... I trust your post was also meant T-I-C?


Minhberg

 

[HawkI]

Can anyone name one accident at great lakes that was caused by a 300 pilot? Since their accident rate went through the roof, there must be a lot right...anybody...? None that I recall!

 

[SouthTex]

Hook

Line

and

Sinker

 

[DC8 Flyer]

I couldn't agree more. It is total crap that minimums at such flagship carriers as ASA have plunged to 600 TT and 100 Multi. Pristine carriers like ASA, Express Jet and Mesa are not starter airlines they are flagships of the industry. When I started at a regional I had 8000TT and 6000 Multi and 4000 PIC turbine... I also earned two type ratings... no I didn't pay for those types like the inexperienced pukes at Southwest. I flew out of Taiwan under a foreign indentured servant program. You would think the airlines would have learned there lesson from Great Lakes who in the past hired pilots with 300 hours... There accident rate went through the roof...

Let me also say I was offered jobs at regionals when I had 1000TT... I turned them all down because I didn't feel comfortable with my skill level. Now that I've finally made it to a regional I can say I'm glad I waited. The demand and skill required on a daily bases to fly a CRJ from Atlanta to MSP is unimaginable.

I only wish todays young aviators would stop falling for the quick entry into a regional job. It's like sex... Just because you're fully qualified doesn't mean you should sleep with every attractive woman that you can.

Scared to Death!!!

Ahhh yes, the old "the bigger the total time number the greater the knowledge" argument. If you couldn't handle flying an ATR or a Dash 8, or even a CRJ at 1000 TT, you need to turn your certs back in because you didn't actually pass any checkrides for them, you must have been buddy passed.

It is so hard to plug in a flight plan, that a dispatcher has made for you, into a FMS, then back it up with those ungodly confusing high alt charts. Let us not forget the descent planning, oh god no, don't use the 36 rule, thats too hard, plug it into the VNAV so you can breathe a sigh of relief that you didnt have to multiply two numbers by 3 and 6.

Get over yourself bud, the only people who shouldn't be in the cockpit is you. If you spent those first 1000 hours dicking off and not learning to fly airplanes and just "building time", you sir are the problem. Those of us that actually like, dare I say LOVE to fly learn from every flight and become better for it.

Again, get over yourself!

 

[Snakum]

"Sarcasm is the making of remarks intended to sneer, jest, or mock the person referred to (who is normally the person addressed), a situation or thing. It is often used in a humorous manner and expressed through particular vocal intonations. Sarcasm is often expressed in ironical statements. It can sometimes be the sincerest form of discourse for the emotionally fragile. This is often done by simply over-emphasizing the actual statement, or particular words of it."

 

[The_Russian]

Was watching a Gulfstream FO greet passengers at the doorway of his Beech1900 today at PNS (after overhearing him and his capt in the bathroom discussing different ways to pick up a clearance...) and was wondering if the passengers had any idea who was flying them around. The dude only has like 100 or so hours right?

Did you know they let 24 year old kids fly FA-18's in the military? What is the difference. If you suck at flying, then you suck. Some F/O's at GIA suck, and some don't. And it is impossible under regulation for them to have 100 hours, but I am sure you were kidding. It all depends on the person and the training they receive. As long as I am sitting in the left seat, there will not be a crash on my airplane. And there has never been a crash at GIA or GLA attributed to low time pilots. Even PCL 3701 was not because the FO in the right seat had low time. It was because they BOTH screwed up about 15 times.

As long as there are a million RJ's flying around, there will always be jobs for low timers. As long as there are turboprops flying next to those RJ's, there will be a need for even lower time pilots.

99% of these pilots that have low time would be just as happy flying a 402 for a few years if they had to. However, the mins for those aircraft are twice as high as 121 carriers. I couldnt even get a job flying for flight express because of 135 mins. The industry itself is backwards, not the pilots. Mostly because of insurance companies.

Just my .02 cents......

 

[pilotyip]

Flight time is no measure of a pilots ability to fly. Going back to the old argument. The USAF has 1000 hour A/C's flying C-17 around the world with no problems, the USN has 400 hour pilots landing F-18's and E-2's on Aircraft carriers with no problems. With 350 hours total flight time I was flying a P-3 around Vietnam. If you have the skill and desire you can be trained to fly safely without 1000's of hours.

 

[The_Russian]

Flight time is no measure of a pilots ability to fly. Going back to the old argument. The USAF has 1000 hour A/C's flying C-17 around the world with no problems, the USN has 400 hour pilots landing F-18's and E-2's on Aircraft carriers with no problems. With 350 hours total flight time I was flying a P-3 around Vietnam. If you have the skill and desire you can be trained to fly safely without 1000's of hours.

Correct.

 

[Gateau]

Was watching a Gulfstream FO greet passengers at the doorway of his Beech1900 today at PNS (after overhearing him and his capt in the bathroom discussing different ways to pick up a clearance...) and was wondering if the passengers had any idea who was flying them around. The dude only has like 100 or so hours right?

I think that you are a creep for stalking the Gulfstream guys in the PNS bathroom.

 

[tapcon]

The other day I flew from IND to PIT on an RJ. Make no mistake, the landing/gear system stress-test was done by the FO. Almost everyone made a sarcastic remark to the cockpit as they got off the plane.

I absolutly agree that skill should not be predicated on flight time...however, you can NOT deny that experience should have a lot of weight. In my humble opinion, I believe that one of the requirements should be a minimum of at least 500 - 1000 hours of dual given, and of that, at least 100 - 200 dual multi given. I truly believe that instructing is invaluble to the process of becoming a better pilot. It teaches one how to cope with so many situations that only helps you with your SA among other skills. This is where these quick track programs falll short...big time.

 

[I.P. Freley]

1000TT 100ME equating to ZERO EXPERIENCE and gets hired by an airline

I understand your point, but do you realize your OWN airline's minimums are 1000TT/100ME??

 

[SouthTex]

The other day I flew from IND to PIT on an RJ. Make no mistake, the landing/gear system stress-test was done by the FO. Almost everyone made a sarcastic remark to the cockpit as they got off the plane.


Do you know how stupid this sounds? I guess every landing by yourself is a stroke of genious. Listen to what you are saying, so what if he/she/it had a bad landing...suck it up and and quit sucking yourself.

 

[mullet]

One bad landing!!! Have you flown with person? Did you sit the jumpseat? Are you one of the guys that can't run a checklist, are 10 miles behind the airplane, mess up radio calls, frustrate the hell out of your captains, then get excited when you grease one in. How impresessive! Only nerdy new guys and the flying public judge pilots ability on their landings. Grow up a little.

 

[mnalpha]

I slam them into the ground every day, but its a dash, so its normal (i hope)

 

[FN FAL]

Did you know they let 24 year old kids fly FA-18's in the military?

Uhhhh...in the salvage navy, we called that...job security.

What about the C-130 that crashed on the west coast because all four engines flamed out due to fuel starvation...because one wing tank got ran dry. The other had fuel.

Then there's the B-52 guy that did the knife edge fly by into the base ball diamond...they were flaming after that low pass.

What about the gay kid that dropped his bombs during training and ran around the country side looking for something convenient to run into.

Then you got the cable car/ harrier incident?

The canadian troops/friendly fire incident?

What about the chick in the ocean F-14 incident?

The air guard guys putting the twin turboprop through the thunderstorm, with the loss of all aboard?

Mid airs caused an H-bomb to be lost off the NC coast, they're still talking about that one.

Speaking of H-bombs, how about the tanker/bomber collision that left several nuclear weapons spread out over Spain?

Then there's training incident after training incident, that we'll never get the full story on...

No knock to the military guys, but just because the stories don't make the paper or the NTSB reports, it don't mean that the military don't have it's incidents and accidents...

 

[FurloughedAgain]

It isn't about skill. Its about experience. It's about flying long enough to see a few winters... to blunder into a few thunderstorms... to fly a few approaches to minimums... to sometimes have to go around.

The experiences we have flight instructing, flying freight (single pilot IMC), etc. prepare us for the airline flying by filling your little bag of tricks. Then, one day when the poop hits the fan, you might have some idea of what to do.

We can teach a monkey how to fly an airplane. (chances are his landings would be better than mine!) What we CANT do is teach him judgement and decision-making.

That is what the low-timers lack. Unfortunately that causes them to rely upon their captains...which, at the worst possible time, makes it a single-pilot cockpit.

If I were king for a day i'd make turbojet SIC minimums an FAR. 1500TT, 500ME, and prior part 121,135, or 91 (corporate not CFI) experience for at least 6 months.

Then you'd be hiring someone who would be an ASSET in the cockpit rather than a liability.

PS - Its not just low-time newhires that are potentially dangerous...it's also any pilot who upgraded to Captain with less than 2 years in the right seat. So it's not just a "newhire" problem.

 

[capt. megadeth]

The other day I flew from IND to PIT on an RJ. Make no mistake, the landing/gear system stress-test was done by the FO. Almost everyone made a sarcastic remark to the cockpit as they got off the plane.

I absolutly agree that skill should not be predicated on flight time...however, you can NOT deny that experience should have a lot of weight. In my humble opinion, I believe that one of the requirements should be a minimum of at least 500 - 1000 hours of dual given, and of that, at least 100 - 200 dual multi given. I truly believe that instructing is invaluble to the process of becoming a better pilot. It teaches one how to cope with so many situations that only helps you with your SA among other skills. This is where these quick track programs falll short...big time.

I don't agree. "Right rudder" for 1000 hours did nothing for me when I went into a J31.

 

[Axel]

Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement.