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500 to 1000 of dual given? Much better experience than a 1000 hours of hauling freight around in a dilapidated POS Twin Cessna, or hauling people around in a corporate jet with captains who took the time to teach everyting they possibly could.

You can't substitute real life line flying experience, OR A GOOD TRAINING PROGRAM AT THE AIRLINE.
 
I spent quite some time as an instructor. About 1200 hour dual given. I also spent about 1200 hours in the left seat of C310, BE58, PA31, and C208's before I got my airline gig. I can tell you I learned alot as an instructor, especially the ablility to mesh with different kinds of people. When I started flying freight, then I found out what line flying was all about in the real world. Different kinds of experience is invaluable. When I upgrade to CA, I would much rather have someone in the right seat who has spent some time in different kinds of flying and has some experiences to draw from if sh!t hits the fan, than someone who is a great stick, but has nothing to add to the crew in a bad situation.

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Reading a GIA thread is like looking at a bottle of Jack Daniels at 10 in the morning. Your judgement says not to partake, but lo and behold, you find yourself unscrewing the cap.

There are two seperate arguments here that have somehow managed to inbreed over the course of time. One is that GIA F.O.s are low-time pilots and that inherently makes them unqualified to do their jobs, followed by the counter-argument of the military, etc. While experience is immeasurably valuable, there are 5-figure TT pilots out there who shouldn't so much as operate a tug, while I have seen 3-figure folks that proceed through airline training with little difficulty. In and of itself, TT is not a suitable factor for judging a pilot's abilities. The military compensates for experience with high-quality, highly focused training in the initial stages. If GIA or other carriers took pilots and, from the get-go, trained them intensively to be airline pilots, including aerobatics for stick and rudder skills, intensive high-density-airspace IFR work with variable weather scenarios, and CRM -- you'd have some pretty competent and safe 500 hour FOs out there who could then simultaneoulsy provide for a safe cockpit while being mentored for ultimately inheriting their fourth stripe and responsibility for the aircraft and all of its contents. I don't know whether GIA or any other airline does this, but that would make the arguments about the "500-hour FO" an entirely different animal. That being said, a 500-hour pilot with poor-to-mediocre initial primary and IFR training who has gone on to perfect their mediocrity (or pass it on to others) in their first flying job, or on their own, is unlikely to be a valuable crewmember no matter how much training the airline itself gives them. It ain't so much the hours -- but rather how they got them.

The other argument deals with the ethics of the financing involved. That an airline charges 5-figures for the privilege of making a similar annual salary as an FO is unethical - no question about it. Counter-arguments often tend towards the selfish ("If you had the opportunity, you'd do it"), as though that would be a similarly appropriate response to cheating on your tax return with impunity as well, and the CFO response ("It makes good business sense -- they do it because they can"). Well, so does charging $10 for a gallon of water after a hurricane blows through and there's no electricity or water. Again, just because it "makes business sense" and is legal doesn't mean it's an ok thing to do.

Before you pass judgement on those who took this route, however, understand that people are not born knowing the airline industry. No one takes trig, history, creative writing, and "The Dos-and-Dont's of becoming an Airline Pilot" in 11th grade. Someone that was aware of the ethics involved, and took the route anyway, certainly deserves scrutiny. Not everyone in that position has however, so denegrating all GIA FOs and the like as scourges is unnecessary.

When it comes to dealing with the PFT folks, look at it two ways:
Those who already have, we work with to fly a safe airplane.
Those who haven't yet, we educate.

End of rant.....the bottle cap is going back on.
 
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What do you know, you only fly a 402. You should have spent some money on better training so that you didn't have to take that job!
 
pilotyip said:
Flight time is no measure of a pilots ability to fly. Going back to the old argument. The USAF has 1000 hour A/C's flying C-17 around the world with no problems, the USN has 400 hour pilots landing F-18's and E-2's on Aircraft carriers with no problems. With 350 hours total flight time I was flying a P-3 around Vietnam. If you have the skill and desire you can be trained to fly safely without 1000's of hours.

But you forgot to add that the military pilots go through a very intensive training program in which typically 30% are eliminated before graduation, and that's after a very competitive screening process first.

They can't buy their way through a training program like the civilian training mills.
 
What is your problem?

What do you know, you only fly a 402. You should have spent some money on better training so that you didn't have to take that job!

Furloughed Again = ******

If you are attempting to represent my airline or defend it in any posts, then please act civil when you respond. You only give us at GIA a bad name. I am tired of people thinking that all of us are spoiled brats who got money from daddy and laugh at people who have different employers or maybe fly smaller aircraft.

I really hope you are flaimbait. And if you aren't, then I don't want you dissing other pilots under GIA's name.
 
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pilotyip said:
Flight time is no measure of a pilots ability to fly. Going back to the old argument. The USAF has 1000 hour A/C's flying C-17 around the world with no problems, the USN has 400 hour pilots landing F-18's and E-2's on Aircraft carriers with no problems. With 350 hours total flight time I was flying a P-3 around Vietnam. If you have the skill and desire you can be trained to fly safely without 1000's of hours.

Who says they have skill and desire? All they need at GIA is money.
 
Gateau said:
What do you know, you only fly a 402. You should have spent some money on better training so that you didn't have to take that job!

Please tell me you're joking. I really hope you know that the definition of a good job has nothing to do with the size of the aircraft. There are many good companies that treat their pilots well, even though they fly C172s and C402s. In fact, quite a few of the highest paid pilots I know fly piston singles and twins. Probably the best one I know is a guy in the southeast who makes $65K a year to spot fish in a C172, and he’s home every night with weekends off. There is a world of aviation out there and not just CFIing, freight, and airlines. Funny thing is it seems the unhappiest pilots in the industry are in one of those three categories.

Or were you being sarcastic?
 
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CE402 said:
Before you pass judgement on those who took this route, however, understand that people are not born knowing the airline industry. No one takes trig, history, creative writing, and "The Dos-and-Dont's of becoming an Airline Pilot" in 11th grade. Someone that was aware of the ethics involved, and took the route anyway, certainly deserves scrutiny. Not everyone in that position has however, so denegrating all GIA FOs and the like as scourges is unnecessary.

Finally, an intelligent poster on flightinfo. At least someone has some common sense around here.
 

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