DL to retire some 732s

[General Lee]

Apparently Delta is following NW's lead and will retire an extra 14 aircraft this year, which consist of 13 732s and 1 733(on or after Sep 1st). They were all due heavy maintenence at the end of the year. I don't know how that will affect recalls, and there is a chance that more Captains will leave with their lump sums. New total airplane retirements for this year---26.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[On Your Six]

Apparently Delta is following NW's lead and will retire an extra 14 aircraft this year, which consist of 13 732s and 1 733(on or after Sep 1st). They were all due heavy maintenence at the end of the year. I don't know how that will affect recalls, and there is a chance that more Captains will leave with their lump sums. New total airplane retirements for this year---26.



Bye Bye--General Lee

Not surprising given the high oil prices, the upcoming heavy maintenance on those particular airplanes and the eventual addition of more 70 seaters (CHQ and maybe Comair).

 

[General Lee]

Not surprising given the high oil prices, the upcoming heavy maintenance on those particular airplanes and the eventual addition of more 70 seaters (CHQ and maybe Comair).

It will take some time to get those new 70 seaters at both of those airlines, especially since USAir now has a new "lease" on life and on those MDA E170s.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[dbrownie]

Apparently Delta is following NW's lead and will retire an extra 14 aircraft this year, which consist of 13 732s and 1 733(on or after Sep 1st). They were all due heavy maintenence at the end of the year. I don't know how that will affect recalls, and there is a chance that more Captains will leave with their lump sums. New total airplane retirements for this year---26.



Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

Sorry to be at the company giving your guys ideas. These guys won't
come up with an original idea if it killed them.

You can almost hear it "northwest parked 30 jets! oh yea
well we can do that too!!"

The latest msg we got is that the 30 we are parking
"won't effect staffing"!!!

How stupid do they really think we are?
(in my case don't answer too quick)

Dave B

 

[michael707767]

The latest msg we got is that the 30 we are parking
"won't effect staffing"!!!

How stupid do they really think we are?
(in my case don't answer too quick)

Dave B

I expect to hear the same here at Delta. And I have the same response. How stupid do they think we are? I expect to hear no more recalls within a couple of months and then more furloughs within 3-4 months. Don't see how they can avoid it.

 

[General Lee]

I expect to hear the same here at Delta. And I have the same response. How stupid do they think we are? I expect to hear no more recalls within a couple of months and then more furloughs within 3-4 months. Don't see how they can avoid it.

With the talk of pension problems, we may see more retirements. Also, remember that we have some large debt and flying too many RJs vs mainline aircraft doesn't bring in enough revenue to pay for it. After we struggle to get through this year, we will probably lease more mainline type aircraft. We won't get away from this "footprint"---that is the key statement I heard at that lounge show. We can't afford not to, and we need to start paying off some of that debt.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

With the talk of pension problems, we may see more retirements. Also, remember that we have some large debt and flying too many RJs vs mainline aircraft doesn't bring in enough revenue to pay for it. After we struggle to get through this year, we will probably lease more mainline type aircraft. QUOTE]




I tend to disagree with you on more retirements. Frankly, I think they missed their chance. I would not retire now and take the chance that before I get my lump sum Delta files BK. Anyone who could have retired and didn't is a f**king idiot, but I still think its too late now.

I do agree that too many RJs are hurting us. I hate to say it, but when management went on the RJ buying binge, it was probably the right move. Back then, passengers wanted more frequency of service and were willing to pay for it, or at least we had the pricing power to get more for it. But, those days are gone. Low price is the number one factor in ticket purchases. Flying 5 or 6 RJs a day into a market doesn't make sense in this environment. The CASM is way too high compared to flying 3 737's. The RJ was never a cost tool, it was a revenue tool. But the revenue isn't there anymore, nor will it be for a long, long time.

 

[MedFlyer]

After we struggle to get through this year, we will probably lease more mainline type aircraft. We won't get away from this "footprint"---that is the key statement I heard at that lounge show. We can't afford not to, and we need to start paying off some of that debt.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Do you think next year is going to be any better? DL is projected to continue losing money next year, particularly if fuel prices remain above $50 a barrel. Even if DL wanted to lease more planes, DL won't be able to get attractive lease rates. DL's credit is so poor and chance of default so high, the lease rates would be astronomical.

You can believe whatever you want at the lounge show, but the reality is that if fuel prices remain this high, DL will continue to dump gaz-guzzling planes. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's no way DL can maintain its current mainline footprint with 90+ planes scheduled to retire and fuel at sky high levels.

 

[FDJ2]

Do you think next year is going to be any better? DL is projected to continue losing money next year, particularly if fuel prices remain above $50 a barrel. Even if DL wanted to lease more planes, DL won't be able to get attractive lease rates. DL's credit is so poor and chance of default so high, the lease rates would be astronomical.

You can believe whatever you want at the lounge show, but the reality is that if fuel prices remain this high, DL will continue to dump gaz-guzzling planes. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there's no way DL can maintain its current mainline footprint with 90+ planes scheduled to retire and fuel at sky high levels.

I suspect there are plenty of mainline aircraft available for lease in this environment with very attractive terms. I wouldn't be surprised to see DAL pick up a few 757s at rock bottom rates in the not too distant future.

The biggest gas guzzlers per ASM out there are probably the CRJs. That was o.k. in a high yield market, unfortunately not so good in todays market.

Over the next few years DAL will retire about 93 older air frames, which doesn't keep up with the current firm orders for 55 new mainline jets. Having said that, DAL has options on at least 82 more mainline aircraft. DAL also negotiated pay rates for some aircraft DAL has no options on, such as the 737-700 and 737-900. Additionally, DAL has increased it's aircraft utilization creating additional block hours equivalent to 15 mainline aircraft.

Here's my wild guess on what DAL might do. Retire the 737-200/300s and replace those with B737-700s. The reduction in fleet of the 767-200s will be offset by future orders of B737-900s. I'll also hazard a guess that the 767-400s and 777s will become a common category.

Future fleet families will be:

767-400/777
757/767
737-700/800/900
MD-88/90

 

[MedFlyer]

I suspect there are plenty of mainline aircraft available for lease in this environment with very attractive terms. I wouldn't be surprised to see DAL pick up a few 757s at rock bottom rates in the not too distant future.

I don't see how you think DL can get attractive financing given DL's current finances. DL is buried in debt and is once again teetering on bankruptcy. DL's credit rating is absolute junk...no way DL gets good rates.

Also, the two of the aircraft types DL needs (737NG and 777) are both still in high demand. Boeing has a large backlog for both these planes. You won't find many 737NG's or 777's in the desert.

DL may pick up a few aircraft, but over time I expect DL's footprint to shrink. This may be good or bad. Obviously, fewer aircraft produce less revenue, but fewer aircraft might actually help yields. Right now, DL continues to dump capacity into the market which is helping drive yields even lower. If yields continue to fall...DL will NEVER make money.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Michaels right!

I do agree that too many RJs are hurting us. I hate to say it, but when management went on the RJ buying binge, it was probably the right move. Back then, passengers wanted more frequency of service and were willing to pay for it, or at least we had the pricing power to get more for it. But, those days are gone. Low price is the number one factor in ticket purchases. Flying 5 or 6 RJs a day into a market doesn't make sense in this environment. The CASM is way too high compared to flying 3 737's. The RJ was never a cost tool, it was a revenue tool. But the revenue isn't there anymore, nor will it be for a long, long time.

You know, I fully agree with you! But why in the heck did JG go after more of them AFTER he suposedly stated that he didn't like them. Why are we (ASA) getting 30 plus more 50/70 airframes this year alone? I personally don't get it in regards to the economies of scale in regards to RJ operations. Maybe a big expansion or market grab in the future is around the corner? Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[FDJ2]

I don't see how you think DL can get attractive financing given DL's current finances. DL is buried in debt and is once again teetering on bankruptcy. DL's credit rating is absolute junk...no way DL gets good rates.

Also, the two of the aircraft types DL needs (737NG and 777) are both still in high demand. Boeing has a large backlog for both these planes. You won't find many 737NG's or 777's in the desert.

DL may pick up a few aircraft, but over time I expect DL's footprint to shrink. This may be good or bad. Obviously, fewer aircraft produce less revenue, but fewer aircraft might actually help yields. Right now, DL continues to dump capacity into the market which is helping drive yields even lower. If yields continue to fall...DL will NEVER make money.

With the number of nice new mainline aircraft parked in the desert, it's a buyers market. You can even get aircraft for power by the hour in this market if you want it.

I agree that DAL needs more NGs. ( 66 on firm order, options on another 60 or so) and 777s (orders for a few more of those still on the books, not to mention orders for 767-400s) Good thing we already have orders in.

Fewer aircraft drive the CASM up. DAL, through Operatioon Clockwork and employee concessions, has dropped mainline CASM 14%. Not bad. Is Simplifares working? Time will tell, but the initial consensus is that it is doing better then expected and Delta's increased utilization of it's existing airframe has increased utilization to about 11 hr/day.

DAL is certainly not out of the woods, but it has moved in the right direction. Mainline costs are down significantly and with Chq flying the E170s with two class configuration for less then a CRJ70, and CMR pilots giving concessions for growth, I supect DCI costs will finally start coming down too. Of course the big spoiler for all of us is the price of fuel. In the end, DAL's success is not assured, but neither is its end.

 

[outtahere]

With the number of nice new mainline aircraft parked in the desert, it's a buyers market. You can even get aircraft for power by the hour in this market if you want it.

I agree that DAL needs more NGs. ( 66 on firm order, options on another 60 or so) and 777s (orders for a few more of those still on the books, not to mention orders for 767-400s) Good thing we already have orders in.

Fewer aircraft drive the CASM up. DAL, through Operatioon Clockwork and employee concessions, has dropped mainline CASM 14%. Not bad. Is Simplifares working? Time will tell, but the initial consensus is that it is doing better then expected and Delta's increased utilization of it's existing airframe has increased utilization to about 11 hr/day.

DAL is certainly not out of the woods, but it has moved in the right direction. Mainline costs are down significantly and with Chq flying the E170s with two class configuration for less then a CRJ70, and CMR pilots giving concessions for growth, I supect DCI costs will finally start coming down too. Of course the big spoiler for all of us is the price of fuel. In the end, DAL's success is not assured, but neither is its end.

Exactly how much lower would you like to see DCI costs go? You know ASA is in negotiations, I suppose you want to see us fall flat on our face with our new contract? If I were in mainlines shoes I would want to see DCI up their costs so maybe management would give em more planes instead of taking them away. Be careful what you wish for!

 

[FDJ2]

Exactly how much lower would you like to see DCI costs go? You know ASA is in negotiations, I suppose you want to see us fall flat on our face with our new contract? If I were in mainlines shoes I would want to see DCI up their costs so maybe management would give em more planes instead of taking them away. Be careful what you wish for!

What I want or don't want is irrelevant. The fact that CMR pilots voted in concessions for growth and Chq will operate E170s for less then a 70 seater is. I wish the CMR pilots had not cave in so easily, but they did, and that will have an effect on your negotiations. There is probably still room for some improvements in the ASA contract, and I hope you get them, but at the end of the day overall DCI costs will come down. I hope you guys get the best contract you can in this environment, but it's going to be an uphill battle which is going to require a great deal of activism from the average ASA pilot and rank and file support of the ASA MEC.

 

[MedFlyer]

With the number of nice new mainline aircraft parked in the desert, it's a buyers market. You can even get aircraft for power by the hour in this market if you want it.

I agree that DAL needs more NGs. ( 66 on firm order, options on another 60 or so) and 777s (orders for a few more of those still on the books, not to mention orders for 767-400s) Good thing we already have orders in.

Fewer aircraft drive the CASM up. DAL, through Operatioon Clockwork and employee concessions, has dropped mainline CASM 14%. Not bad. Is Simplifares working? Time will tell, but the initial consensus is that it is doing better then expected and Delta's increased utilization of it's existing airframe has increased utilization to about 11 hr/day.

You might want to visit the desert sometime. The desert is indeed full of planes, but not new mainline planes. The desert is filled with 727s, DC9's, 737 Classics, L1011s and DC10's. You'll be hard pressed to find a brand new 737 or 777 in the desert.

Having orders is great, but you've got to have a way to pay for the planes too. DL is already planning on selling the 777's slated for delivery this year.

Reducing mainline fleet size may increase CASM, but it might be worth it if it drives up yields. Right now, no matter how many mainline planes DL adds, DL cannot make money. Yields are simply too low. Yields MUST rise or DL will NEVER make money again.

 

[michael707767]

Reducing mainline fleet size may increase CASM, but it might be worth it if it drives up yields. Right now, no matter how many mainline planes DL adds, DL cannot make money. Yields are simply too low. Yields MUST rise or DL will NEVER make money again.

cutting the fleet to increase yield is a fallacy. It has been shown time and time again that whatever capacity a legacy carrier pulls out of the market is shortly replaced by an LCC. I don't know what the answer is, but shrinking your fleet size sure isn't going to work.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Is it true that Delta connection, collectively, is getting 30+ more RJ's as mainline is losing 20+ planes??

Did Delta bring the 737-200 out of the desert just to hold marketshare, and placate DALPA, until Delta Connection could get more aircraft??

Is management trying to keep the pilots off balance so they will agree to more cuts or a B-scale for new 90-100 seaters??

Not trying to start a flame...just trying to figure out what is going on at Delta.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Seems like this plan has been in the works awhile and is not in response to the recent oil price spike and bad quarter.

 

[Noserider76]

Seems like this plan has been in the works awhile and is not in response to the recent oil price spike and bad quarter.

Correct, these aircraft are coming up on expensive heavy checks. Good possibility of some new mainline a/c in the not too distant future.

 

[FDJ2]

You might want to visit the desert sometime. The desert is indeed full of planes, but not new mainline planes. The desert is filled with 727s, DC9's, 737 Classics, L1011s and DC10's.

Not true, there are quite a few relatively new parked aircraft looking for a new home.