DL/DALPA agree to recall schedule

[FDJ2]

I'm getting pretty tired of these arrogant mainline SOBs.

And than you said:

Instead of working things out maturely together and try to come to reasonable solutions, this finger pointing and immature talk has to start all over again.

Nice glass house littledog.

BTW, it wasn't my PWA that allowed me to be a wholly owned subsidiary it was yours that allowed you to become one and it's not up to me to cut you loose. In the meantime Mother Delta will continue to subsidize you.

 

[Bill Mostellar]

Mainline is SO convinced that ASA/CMR are the enemy, but they fail to realize that they are their own worst enemy.

I don't know a single Delta pilot who considers DCI pilots the enemy. However, I can't say that regarding their opinion of those who support RJDC.

Arrogance, self-righteousness, contempt, will come back to haunt DALPA.

No, a blind acceptance of managment's perspective would come back to haunt us. Fortunately, DALPA is patiently analyzing the situation.

This is a fundamental struggle for survival, and you haven't even figured out who you are fighting.

You're right - it's a struggle for survival and you ain't the enemy.

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

Who's code will you fly?

Return volley ---

after chapter 11, whose (sorry, who's) code will you fly?

 

[letthebigdogeat]

FDJ2,
I'm not going to come down to your level. Your time is coming. Just wait and see. Oh BTW it's and then, not than. But hey I'm only a regional pilot, not worthy of correcting you.

Bill,
RJDC is the best thing that has happened to me. Finally an organization that looks injustice in the eye and confronts it head on. ALPA's day in court is once again fast approaching. When (If you do) you commute home, most of the regional guys at ASA and COMAIR are part of RJDC, so I suggest you keep your opinion to your self.

This industry is changing slowly but surely. It just kills me to listen to some of you arrogant people who still think you're better than us regional pilots. WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT!!! Instead of fighting eachother, let's try and fight our way through this difficult time together, as a team. It's just fortunate that I don't have to rely on some of you to go to war with, because quite frankly I don't know if I could trust you.

Screw the code. Give me my own operating certificate and for the right price I'll take your people gladly away from you.

 

[AA717driver]

I've heard that the DALPA payscale isn't the only thing in management's sights.

The Comair pay is starting to attract attention, too.

As for the recalls, I think for anyone who has gotten a decent job while on furlough, returning for this particular reason will be a tough sell. If DAL had a plan to grow and they were recalling, great, take the recall and enjoy your career.

Returning now seems risky unless you are wearing an orange apron. IMO.TC

 

[letthebigdogeat]

COMAIR is not going to give a penny! We as ASA brothers to COMAIR will neither!

And regarding the DAL furloughs, I personally would hang this one out. You're already given the option, so please do it. I want to see you back in the cockpit, but just wait this one out. There are just too many uncertainties at this point.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Re: Re: Re: DL/DALPA agree...

DAL SEC filing:

However, if you are so concerned about DAL going into BK, you could through your MEC voluntarily take a pay cut and adjust your work rules to be more in line with MESA. I'm sure every little bit helps

FDJ2,

This is, at best, an absurd idea (read: stupid). You and all other mainline pilots should NEVER advocate lower pay at the regionals. The only thing that this lower pay equates to is a more attractive outsourcing alternative to your mainline flying. The domino effect is a loss of flying at mainline, more furloughs, and fewer future mainline opportunities for those of us who want that option.

Time to step out of that myopic little world for a minute

 

[Bill Mostellar]

Bill,
RJDC is the best thing that has happened to me. Finally an organization that looks injustice in the eye and confronts it head on. ALPA's day in court is once again fast approaching. When (If you do) you commute home, most of the regional guys at ASA and COMAIR are part of RJDC, so I suggest you keep your opinion to your self.

I like to hear our jumpseaters' opinion on such matters, whether I agree or not. FWIW - my statement regarding RJDC was about other Delta pilots' perceptions of those who support RJDC, not my own.

This industry is changing slowly but surely. It just kills me to listen to some of you arrogant people who still think you're better than us regional pilots. WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT!!! Instead of fighting eachother, let's try and fight our way through this difficult time together, as a team. It's just fortunate that I don't have to rely on some of you to go to war with, because quite frankly I don't know if I could trust you.

As I said, you're not the enemy.

As to war - been there, done that.

Screw the code. Give me my own operating certificate and for the right price I'll take your people gladly away from you.

You don't have any flying outside the Delta code. You're making a big assumption that you'd be able to sustain your current operations without the Delta code.

Edited because it sounded harsher than I intended

 

[Bill Mostellar]

after chapter 11, whose (sorry, who's) code will you fly?

Take a look at the other carrier's who've gone to chapter 11 - they're still flying their own code. However, once it gets in the hands of a judge, anything is possible. Unfortunately, if we loose protection of our code, I imagine DCI would as well. It could get very ugly for all of us.

 

[letthebigdogeat]

Bill,
Enough said. I really don't have the time to play this kindergarden ping pong ball game of you this and I that.
I just think it's extremely unfortunate that some of our pilot group members can't maturely discuss certain topics without being antagonized. Good luck........

 

[bvt1151]

Re: Re: Re: DL/DALPA agree...

DAL SEC filing:

Delta expects to have capital expenditures of approximately $1.1 billion in 2004. This includes approximately $500 million for aircraft

$500M in 2004 for RJs.

Yes it's a fact that DAL pays the RJ debt you can see it in any SEC filing. I'll take Michele Burn's, DAL's CFO, public statement at face value. Are you stating that she lied? ASA and CMR are in fact subsidized by DAL. ASA and CMR only pay direct operating costs. No there is no fraud in a parent company assigning certain profits to a wholly owned, as long as in the long run all the revenue and costs are accounted for. In DAL's case, a large part of the costs of the RJ operation are paid by the parent company DAL. However, if you are so concerned about DAL going into BK, you could through your MEC voluntarily take a pay cut and adjust your work rules to be more in line with MESA. I'm sure every little bit helps

Here we go again!!! I'm convinced you're the first one in line to drink the kool-aid when it serves your own purpose. One more time...for the record...

originally posted on 05-08-2004 by yours truly

This has been explained over and over again, but nobody seems to understand the different reporting techniques (well at least not when it makes a point in their favor). The $100 million a year profit we are talking about comes from the DOT data. That DOT data includes all aircraft costs(debt), insurance, taxes, interest, advertising and Depreciation.
Michelle was not referring to the DOT reporting procedures, since Comair reports those numbers directly, not through Michelle. Michelle was referring to the information she has under her control, or Delta's own internal accounting. Two very different accounting techniques.

If Comair does not pay for their own aircraft costs, where did the $15.5 million in aircraft depreciation expenses come from in Q3 2003?
Or how about the $31.7 million in aircraft rentals in Q3 2003?
...$3.7 million in insurance expenses?
...$13.3 million in outside services (Reservations and Ground Handling)

(Comair pays their own advertising costs, however it is minimal, since Delta gutted Comair's marketing department soon after the buyout.)

All of those costs included with Michelle's operating costs still leaves us with a net profit of $23 million for 2003 Q3. Without the depreciation, rentals, insurance and outside services, Michelle was looking at a Comair profit not of $23 million per quarter, but a profit of over $87.2 million a quarter!

*Find all of these numbers in Schedule P6 and P12 of the DOT form 41 reports. Really, go look, they're there.

Could we finally put this to rest now?

...apparently not.


Delta's not paying $500 M in 2004 for RJ's, but even if they were, those capital expenditures are being offset by ASA and Comair's revenues which are still producing a net (yes I said net) profit, $143.5 M worth of net profit last year to be exact(with all RJ leases, depreciation, interest, insurance, landing fees, reservations fees, etc. included).

Delta is still paying hansomly on several aircraft other than the RJ's. That $500 M is not all attributed to RJ's, but rather the bulk of it belongs to the 767-400's, 777's, 737-800's, and 757-200's.



Airline Management 101: Keep your employee groups separate and mad at each other.

Michelle has you hook, line, and sinker...and she doesn't even work for Delta anymore!

 

[FDJ2]

Instead of fighting eachother,

eachother? I think you mean each other, littledog. How's that glass house you live in?

 

[FDJ2]

bvt, some of the DCI RJs are leased, but most are not. Your small lease payments hardly cover the billions spent by DAL in acquiring RJs.

 

[bvt1151]

bvt, some of the DCI RJs are leased, but most are not. Your small lease payments hardly cover the billions spent by DAL in acquiring RJs.

Perhaps you didn't read my post.

All interest, depreciation, leases, etc are included. Delta doesn't even report RJ expenditures on schedule P5.2 (the schedule that breaks down expenses by aircraft.) All ATR, CRJ, and CR7 P5.2 reports are attributed to either ASA or CMR, depending on where the aircraft flies. Add all these numbers up, and you still get $143 M in net profit.

For clarity's sake, when aircraft are bought, it is not depicted on the profit and loss statement. There is no real "expense " on the aircraft since it is an asset that retains its value. Rather a complex depreciation equation is used to accomidate for the loss in value that happens to the aircraft over time (depreciation). Both Comair and ASA are reporting significant depriciation on aircraft assests. That means Comair and ASA own the aircraft as assets (remember this is all in the eyes of the DOT, where the $143 M profit comes from) and are incurring the depreciation penalties for them. It's one of the more difficult concepts of accounting, but it proves Comair and ASA are paying much much more than just operating costs...in the eyes of the DOT.

 

[General Lee]

Hi everyone, I am back. I had a great week in Italy---the weather was great and the food even better.

And, while I was away I have noticed more new changes or meetings. I will give my spin on them now.

Grinstein had a pilot meeting and a general meeting in SLC. I read over the transcripts and have noticed a few things. Yes, he wants pay cuts form us---and I think that everyone is now leaning towards finally sitting down and negotiating. Grinstein just put together his final negotiating team and Dalpa has been saying all along that they were ready to sit down and talk about it. Whether Dalpa will give the 30%+ straight pay cut and other things Grinstein says he "needs" is up in the air. I think there will be a raise in the amount we were originally offering--and that is a start. But, both Malone and our negotiator Wycoff did state at a NYC LEC meeting and the ATL LEC meeting that the recall of the furloughs would survive the negotiating process---which is good news for our furloughed pilots.

Grinstein apparently told of the new offensive brought on by the LCCs, and how we need to become more competitive, which is obvious to even Dalpa. He seemed to have a strategy of better utilization of aircraft and crews that seem to make sense--although his starategic review, upon completion, will reveal more inefficiencies. I know we have a hub and spoke system and we do not fly our planes like Southwest---but we probably could fly them more often throughout the day.

He did zero in on RJ issues---and maybe that was just for the mainline pilots. This is something that BVT1151, Surplus1, Fins, Palerider, Medflyer, RJCAP, and all of the other RJ guys don't want to hear---but I will relay it anyway:

1. A question came up about DCI flying the 100 seaters. His response: "I can't see DCI flying them."

2. He said he doesn't think the RJs should be used on legs longer than 2 hours, which he then stated that those types of flights are "viewed as sub-standard service by our loyal customers."

3. He said that the RJ utilization is a "short term fix" and that he may look into possible 100 seaters, he stated E190s as an example, that could carry not only passengers but the BAGS as well and extra fuel for tankering when needed. He also said that he may stick with larger planes if the LCCs continue to use their airplanes at higher efficiencies.


All of this may be just to "give the mainline pilots what they want to hear" and it does seem like DCI pilots have one guy in their corner-- Mike Bell--the VP of planning. He still seems to love RJs, and he thinks of them as money makers---when Grinstien---his BOSS---thinks of them from a customer service point of view. When Mike Bell was asked why Southwest didn't have RJs--he couldn't come up with a real answer. Southwest seems to making money without RJs. Airtran wants to ditch theirs, and Jetblue will flying nothing smaller than 100 seaters. More will come out about this after the strategic review is complete I am sure.

Grinstein also stated that he wants to complete these negotiations "quickly"---which I think is a good idea. Yes, fuel prices are high at the moment---and even though OPEC will be discussing further oil production quotas at their June 3rd meeting--they will remain high for the near term. The one saving grace right now is the high load factor for the Summer---which will offset the lower fares and oil prices somewhat. It would be worse if these higher fuel prices hit us at a low period---like September.

Also this week Joe Kolshack was announced as Flight Ops Czar---covering DCI as well. Kolshack is a good speaker has been groomed for management for awhile supposedly, and I don't know if that will have a huge affect on the DCI pilots. He is a mainline pilot at heart (a 757/767 Capt), but he has to run DCI as well and try to show profits on that side too. Regardless, Grinstein is his boss and his views are known now about RJs and their uses. It will be interesting to watch.

Well, I hope they meet soon and negotiate something fair and move forward. A lot of this bad press lately has been replaced by a recent upgrade giving our stock a needed boost, and people are starting to turn towards fixing this whole thing. After the huge retirements on June 1st (217 Capts as of a couple days ago)--recalls will commence on July 1st and things will be packed for the Summer. I hope it is the start of a better era in our recent history and we will move forward. Hey, it is our 75th Anniversary this year!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bake]

General, a couple of weeks ago a polished aluminum DC-3 with Delta Air Lines painted down the side landed at Houston Hobby. One of the most beautiful airplanes I have ever seen.

Bake

 

[General Lee]

Bake,

Yeah, I remember that airplane was refurbished in 2000 (?) I believe and flies around to different airshows etc. It is a good PR tool---and our new paint scheme on the 767 "Spirit of Delta" is nice too. Let's hope we can recapture some of that "Delta Spirit" and move forward.........

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jetflyer]

Perhaps you didn't read my post.

All interest, depreciation, leases, etc are included. Delta doesn't even report RJ expenditures on schedule P5.2 (the schedule that breaks down expenses by aircraft.) All ATR, CRJ, and CR7 P5.2 reports are attributed to either ASA or CMR, depending on where the aircraft flies. Add all these numbers up, and you still get $143 M in net profit.

For clarity's sake, when aircraft are bought, it is not depicted on the profit and loss statement. There is no real "expense " on the aircraft since it is an asset that retains its value. Rather a complex depreciation equation is used to accomidate for the loss in value that happens to the aircraft over time (depreciation). Both Comair and ASA are reporting significant depriciation on aircraft assests. That means Comair and ASA own the aircraft as assets (remember this is all in the eyes of the DOT, where the $143 M profit comes from) and are incurring the depreciation penalties for them. It's one of the more difficult concepts of accounting, but it proves Comair and ASA are paying much much more than just operating costs...in the eyes of the DOT.

Nice post and analysis

Jet

 

[jetflyer]

bvt, some of the DCI RJs are leased, but most are not. Your small lease payments hardly cover the billions spent by DAL in acquiring RJs.

FDJ2,

The more you talk, the more evident it is that you don't know much about accounting. BVT1151's analysis is right on. Comair and ASA are profitable even when counting the DEPRECIATION on their aircraft purchases and counting their LEASES, INSURANCE EXPENSES and OUTSIDE SERVICES.

Jet

 

[loosecannon]

Recall

Well, I'm one of the furloughees, and I'm not getting my hopes up. If the summer goes well, and fuel prices get back down to reasonable levels I'll start getting more excited. As it stands now, I have a good flying job (one of the lucky ones I guess), and I have no intention of quitting until DAL shows me some stability. I want a contract signed, a good business plan in place, and the threat of imminent bk removed. I may have to wait a while, but at least I'm in a position to do that. The recall is great news for the guys that haven't found a decent job. I know how tight my finances were getting before I found something, and this will at least stop the bleeding, but I'm not convinced that we aren't going to take it in the shorts again. I hope not, but I'm not betting my family's future on it. Count me in the "defer" list.

dc

PS- General Lee, thanks for all the positive posts. They've been the bright spots of my message board reading for the past 2+ years.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Recall

As it stands now, I have a good flying job (one of the lucky ones I guess), and I have no intention of quitting until DAL shows me some stability...Count me in the "defer" list.

In all sincerity, I think you're making a wise choice.

 

[Networ-King]

Re: Recall

Well, I'm one of the furloughees, and I'm not getting my hopes up. If the summer goes well, and fuel prices get back down to reasonable levels I'll start getting more excited. As it stands now, I have a good flying job (one of the lucky ones I guess), and I have no intention of quitting until DAL shows me some stability. I want a contract signed, a good business plan in place, and the threat of imminent bk removed. I may have to wait a while, but at least I'm in a position to do that. The recall is great news for the guys that haven't found a decent job. I know how tight my finances were getting before I found something, and this will at least stop the bleeding, but I'm not convinced that we aren't going to take it in the shorts again. I hope not, but I'm not betting my family's future on it. Count me in the "defer" list.

dc

PS- General Lee, thanks for all the positive posts. They've been the bright spots of my message board reading for the past 2+ years.

Ditto for me..... but by the time they get to my number things should have already been played out. Stability you say? Man, your in the wrong industry for that.


64j,

I read your post and couldn't agree with you more about the kind of representation that Comair and ASA are getting. I've done the commuter/regional/small jet mainline flying and I have always been one for the one list/ one airline, but unfortunately management will never let that happen. About your post.... your correct in the fact that if Mutha D goes BK they'll go after everyone. Heck I've already given a 100%, but I've moved on and will continue to monitor the situation and weigh my options. From what I heard as of last night is that Delta is recalling instructors for the 737 to start the movement. I don't know if thats a bowl movement or the training movement with Delta, but my sim partner just got notification to get back to the school house and he said, supposedly they are doing the right thing and Im sure we'll hear something about a concessions package shortly. x your fingers that they leave you guys alone cause your pay need to go up not down.

 

[MedFlyer]

Re: Recall

Well, I'm one of the furloughees, and I'm not getting my hopes up. If the summer goes well, and fuel prices get back down to reasonable levels I'll start getting more excited. As it stands now, I have a good flying job (one of the lucky ones I guess), and I have no intention of quitting until DAL shows me some stability. I want a contract signed, a good business plan in place, and the threat of imminent bk removed. I may have to wait a while, but at least I'm in a position to do that. The recall is great news for the guys that haven't found a decent job. I know how tight my finances were getting before I found something, and this will at least stop the bleeding, but I'm not convinced that we aren't going to take it in the shorts again. I hope not, but I'm not betting my family's future on it. Count me in the "defer" list.

dc

You're a wise man.

 

[General Lee]

Deferring (SP?) is definately your choice as a furlough---but with all of this talk as of late, I would BELIEVE that something is in the works. I think a lot of this bad press as of late has NOT be countered for a reason---maybe to accelerate needed retirements. I really don't know if that is the case, but maybe. From what I have read of Grinstein's SLC talk---I think he is getting his team together to try to save this ship, and I think Dalpa is getting ready to give a good portion back to the company. But, at the same time I think Dalpa realizes that the furloughed group is a large group---and sine the Western guys mostly did NOT return to ALPA after their merger with Delta and feeling "screwed"---Dalpa saw that they could not ignore those guys. My advice---(for what it is worth)---if you have nothing better or nothing stable right now--come on back. If you have a good job (like a Jetblue job)--keep it and watch the situation carefully. You can always come back when they have new classes---and they will be having them hopefully thru Aug, 2006. Maybe the financial picture will be brighter then---I think it will.

Bye Bye--General Lee


PS----Loosecannon, hey, I choose to look at the situations with a "glass half full" mentality---and I pay attention and listen to people around me. I think the sooner we negotiate, the sooner we will be on our way moving forward again. I bet you will be coming back and feeling better about the situation sooner than you think. Take care.

 

[spanky2]

GL,
Good, thought-provoking, comment regarding ALPA. What would be the implications of NOT returning to ALPA...besides the obvious of no dues, no "Johnny Cochran lawyers" to protect you? As a new hire, you just kinda follow the lemming in front of you...but as a furlougheee, life looks a little different.

I think Delta will see numerous MLOA and PLOA uses from the returning furloughees. Possibly as many as 50 numbers to get 30 each month.

Also agree, concessions will come quick. Next step after that will be Contract 2005...DALPA will be watching FEDEX ALPA results...not that this is an "apples-to-apples" comparison but an indicator.

Finally, I see FM I recallees going to training very soon after recall and the senior FM II UNA pilots continuing to be UNA until the 200+ retirements finally rippling down.

Cheers...e-Spanky2...out.

 

[BigMotorToter]

General Lee,

I am furloughed from AA. When we or should I say the APA negotiated the beautiful deal they have now, they re-drew the no furlough list so to not include the bottom 3700 or so, which conveniently got rid of most of the red tails, but that's a whole other story. Any talk at Delta about management wanting the same? I have some Delta friends that are worried that if they come back, and then the no furlough list is re-drawn under your next contract, then they are one terrorist strike away to being on the street again. You guys seem to stick together and not eat your young, so I would assume any new contract will or should protect ALL Delta pilots. I am hopeful you keep that part of the contract so maybe when the APA negotiates the next contract they can look to yours and use the industry standard guideline. Then again, I and most of the furloughee's are from the wrong side of the airport so probably not.

 

[General Lee]

Bigmotortoter,

Sure, I think the company would want that. But, our MEC chairman--Malone and our chief negotiator--Wycoff--both stated just recently at LEC meetings in NYC and ATL that any form of concessions would include the recall schedule (maybe a variance on the numbers of recalls per month)and it would SURVIVE. In other words, they don't plan to sell out the furloughs or create more. That would force Delta to continue expanding mainline--and I think Grinstein would want that anyway. He doesn't really like RJs--like Fred Reid did---and that causes the DCI guys to brown their shorts. Grinstein also stated in his recent SLC meeting that Delta probably would go for some sort of new 100 seater---and that he "couldn't see DCI flying them." With the large amount of retirements on June 1st due to the Gatt rate (already 217 Capts signed up--and should go to 250 or 300)---the ground work is set for a slow recall rate of 30-40 a month. We also have a slow retirement of ex-Western Airlines guys retiring--but they aren't taking the early outs because their Western flying years of service are NOT included in their Delta retirement---and that is probably another 300-400 guys over the next couple years. Now, this could change if Delta goes Chap 11----but so far it looks like there should be some agreement soon (hopefully)---and then we can move forward. Also, we have had a "pay premium" for the last three years when you compare our pay to the pay at AA and UAL. Our retirement is based off of our 3 best consequtive years---and a lot of guys took advantage of the higher rates over the last three years. So, now they can ride out their next 5-10 years and just get the "years" counted for their retirement (longevity)--and their retirement will still be 60% of their best three years---which they have already had.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Also agree, concessions will come quick. Next step after that will be Contract 2005...DALPA will be watching FEDEX ALPA results...not that this is an "apples-to-apples" comparison but an indicator.

Spanky, PMFJI, but one of the quids for any voluntary DAL pilot concession is a contract extension, otherwise we will be in section six negotiations with an amendable date no earlier than May 2005. If the company were to get early concessions from the pilots, and I do believe a deal will be hammered out this summer, than we won't be looking at section 6 negotiations for another couple of years at least.

I do agree that many furloughed pilots will by-pass recall for a variety of reasons. Some furloughed pilots may have good jobs at SWA, JBLU or some other good job they don't want to walk away from quite yet, and quite a few furloughed pilots have military obligations.

 

[wms]

That would force Delta to continue expanding mainline--and I think Grinstein would want that anyway. He doesn't really like RJs--like Fred Reid did---and that causes the DCI guys to brown their shorts. Grinstein also stated in his recent SLC meeting that Delta probably would go for some sort of new 100 seater---and that he "couldn't see DCI flying them."

I agree that DCI RJ flying has been excessive. I also agree that 100-seaters (I wish there were a better option than the EMB, maybe the 73-600) should be flown by ML. I hope it's all tied to a brand-scope of some sort to protect ALL pilots in the DAL/DCI group, like what appears will happen at AAL. I also think that DAL/DALPA should be asking why ASA/CA are hiring when there could be opportunities for the furloughs there, provided it results in a fair agreement.

 

[General Lee]

WMS,

The people at ASA have been nice enough to hire our furloughs without seniority resignation. As far as brand-scope protection--I think there will be some more of that, and if Grinstein and Kolshack like what they see in terms of costs at all of the units---will provide more flying to the three of us. But, lately everything has dropped in terms of wages and management has had fun whipsawing the different DCI units against each other. I would prefer to just use ASA and Comair for our feed---which would allow us to keep 100% of the profits.

Bye Bye--General Lee