Disgusted with Freeloaders at Flops!

[glasspilot]

How do they "artificially suppress" admissions?

 

[gunfyter]

How do they "artificially suppress" admissions?

The Medical Cartel: Why are MD Salaries So High?

In his classic book Capitalism and Freedom, Milton Friedman describes the American Medical Association (AMA) as the “strongest trade union in the United States” and documents the ways in which the AMA vigorously restricts competition.

The Council on Medical Education and Hospitals of the AMA approves both medical schools and hospitals. By restricting the number of approved medical schools and the number of applicants to those schools, the AMA limits the supply of physicians. In the same way that OPEC was able to quadruple the price of oil in the 1970s by restricting output, the AMA has increased their fees by restricting the supply of physicians.


​

What we need is a national association to restrict competition for pilots... modeled after the AMA.

 

[acpilot]

I agree, doctors are in an interesting spot.

 

[1folinepilot]

I have answered, but not directly to you. I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again. Because unions have changed the fabric of the industry, there is no easy answer. Putting a new union into a non- union company though will hurt these pilots rather than help them.
Here is the union issue at its greatest point of destruction for what is fair. Unions have destroyed the freedom of pilots to sell their talents to the highest bidder.
Because unions have modeled seniority as the primary method of promotion within the industry, a pilot is not free to “fire” the company he doesn’t like and freely move to another that provides a working environment matching his skills without paying a high price by losing seniority and pay. This is a union issue, not a free market issue. The rest of us have the option to sell our skills to the highest bidder. Pilots don’t!
Union based airlines are not free to promote or hire Captains based on internal recommendations or by talent to place the best talent in the left seat, the union seniority number is everything. Union based airlines can’t pick and choose the most qualified resumes to fly the equipment. The American way for any company to succeed is to hire and promote the best people and not doing it based on length of seniority.
It is virtually impossible for a pilot to move freely from company to company selling his skills to the highest bidder. Any company would love an opportunity to hire the most qualified individuals and talented pilots to operate their equipment. Because the die has been cast by unions, pilots hiring or promotion from within to make sure the best and brightest are flying the equipment is not possible.
Do I have an answer? Not for the average pilot. Unions have changed the fabric of the industry. The only thing I can suggest is to make your employment decision the best you can and learn to live within the system. What is happening right now at Delta will make it interesting for the rest of the industry. By voting union after union out, it shows that employees believe in the COMPANY and not the union.

Bob, pre-contract at Flops, there was a program called the Senior Flight Officer program to reward the "best and a brightest" pilots you speak of. Kenn took pay from all of the pilots by paying below market value for the entire roster and gave that pay to a few what you call "the best and the brightest" The problem with the program is one had to routinely "Play Ball" and "go the extra mile" (ie fly broke, tired, over duty, over weight or what ever it took) to be considered into the program and receive the extra pay. There were no set documented rules to qualify for the program because if it was based on flying by the SOP's, FAR's, GOM, POH (ie safe) over 95% of the pilots would qualify.

While I do not like all aspects of the contract, it is still better than what we had and could loose with the stroke of a few buttons on a manager's blackberry. You sir can keep your good ol boy network and perverted management style.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Because of management imposed Training Contracts!

Don't give me this Airlines love free markets crap. Braniff? Legend? Predatory pricing to put them out of business and then jack up prices.

People are furloughed has nothing to do with the presence of a union. Neither does a crappy contract. I am sure the Company offered a better deal and the union said , "NO!"

You are ex-military, are you not?

When you trained, did you not have a minimum length of time you needed to sign on for? Once trained, you couldn't just walk away could you. Didn't the US government protect the investment in your flight training in that way?

What is the difference between that and a training contract?

Why was it OK for the military and not a private company?

Please explain, we'd all like to hear it.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Bob, pre-contract at Flops, there was a program called the Senior Flight Officer program to reward the "best and a brightest" pilots you speak of. Kenn took pay from all of the pilots by paying below market value for the entire roster and gave that pay to a few what you call "the best and the brightest" The problem with the program is one had to routinely "Play Ball" and "go the extra mile" (ie fly broke, tired, over duty, over weight or what ever it took) to be considered into the program and receive the extra pay. There were no set documented rules to qualify for the program because if it was based on flying by the SOP's, FAR's, GOM, POH (ie safe) over 95% of the pilots would qualify.

While I do not like all aspects of the contract, it is still better than what we had and could loose with the stroke of a few buttons on a manager's blackberry. You sir can keep your good ol boy network and perverted management style.

You're missing the point. I understand that maybe it didn't work out the way you'd like.

However, because of the seniority system and unions, pilots are NOT free to move freely from company to company.

If your company flew only one type of aircraft, lets say a specific model of 737. Would it not be to the advantage of the company to be able to pluck out of the national pilot pool those with the most experience and place them in the left seat based on talent and pay them at the top of the pay scale? Wouldn't it be nice if a pilot had the freedom to sell his skills to the highest bidder and not have to always begin in the right seat and wait for decades to make top pay? Talented doctors can come fresh out of medical school and do that... but no matter how bright and good a pilot is, the union way of seniority will prevent that from happening.

Doctors have been mentioned in this conversation. Hospitals are able to assemble a pool of doctors based on talent, rather than length of time as a doctor.

Pilot's can't sell their talent to the highest bidder freely without a "high price" to pay. Even a regional Captain has to take a huge pay cut with hopes of pay increase down the road as seniority builds.

How many of the 500 at NJA took the chance and are now walking the streets knowing that wherever they go they have to begin at the bottom? How many of these guys are solid pilots that have great training but watch as those with lessor backgrounds are still employed and flying simply because they have more time at the company?
I've never considered all pilots cut from the same cloth. No matter where they are trained, there are strong and weak pilots. The union fabric does not allow the company to build on the best and cull those that aren't ready or barely make minimum standards.


Like I said, I don't have the answer, but putting a union into a company without one isn't going to help.


Is there any fractional now upgrading Captains based on skills rather than seniority? How is it working?

And before we get too far off track, I still haven't had my question answered yet on those perceived "freeloaders".

Why do you folks feel these pilots should pay for prior to April?

Are they not protected by the same contract that supposedly protects you from the evils of FLOPS?

You can't pick and choose...

 

[gunfyter]

You are ex-military, are you not?

What is the difference between that and a training contract?

Why was it OK for the military and not a private company?

Please explain, we'd all like to hear it.

The difference is in the military you don't do it for money. You do it for service to your country. You sign up you are obligated to your country.

Training CONTRACTS prevent pilots from seeking employment at the highest bidder!

Why are TRAINING Contracts a good thing? But not a CBA? You LIKE contracts when they benefit management, don't you.

Please explain why a Training contract is OK but not a Union contract.

 

[acpilot]

The difference is in the military you don't do it for money. You do it for service to your country. You sign up you are obligated to your country.

The benefits for life never factored in, I'm sure.

 

[gunfyter]

The benefits for life never factored in, I'm sure.

No, they didn't. You are correct.

 

[wacoflyr]

Guys, I know you don't like him, but I'm gonna give B19 some props here. I asked him a direct question, and he answered it. No, I don't like his answer, but I think he is probably right. Pilots are in a lousy situation. Now who's fault is it? I couldn't care less. But we can't take our skills to the highest bidder, even after fulfilling a training contract. And that sucks.

Most of us, maybe all of us, would prefer to deal honestly with a management that dealt honestly with us. This is not going to happen very often because management of any U.S. company is under continual pressure to improve the bottom line in the short term, like right now. And because we cannot easily leave, we are tempting targets. Honest men and women in management, who like a good night's sleep and want to be able to look at a good person in the mirror in the morning, won't give in to this pressure. But some will. I don't know what percentage. A lot has to do with company culture, but remember that the pressure is enormous. There may be too many players in the fractional world. Who can cut their costs the most? Who will survive?

Where B19's argument falls short, as he just admitted, is that he has no alternative to a union. I very much wish he did. Because, just like a lot of you, I have a family to feed. It makes me very sad that I may, someday, have to leave the job that has given me the most satisfaction because I cannot get fairly compensated for what I do, and I cannot go through life enslaved to a management team. Any management team.

I don't like unions. Unfortunately, just like B19, I can't think of an alternative. He can be abrasive, but give him his due. He spoke the truth.

Wacoflyr

 

[fischman]

Please explain why a Training contract is OK but not a Union contract.

Good luck with that.

B19 is completely incapable of explaining or backing up any of the lies he spews. I have PROVEN him a liar on several occasions. All he does is bash unions and contradict himself by saying he has no problem with them. Whatever...

 

[acpilot]

Please explain why a Training contract is OK but not a Union contract.

Put simply, training contracts are created by a productive organization, union contracts are not.

 

[gunfyter]

Put simply, training contracts are created by a productive organization, union contracts are not.

No, training contracts are created by organizations that want to underpay their workers.

 

[acpilot]

No, training contracts are created by organizations that want to underpay their workers.

That's true. It's a scummy way of doing business*, but it's still "doing business."

*I've signed a training contract. I had my eyes on the type and TPIC time (and I got them!), but I wound up leaving because they wouldn't stop asking me to break regs and demanded that I stop recording duty times on trip sheets. The CP went so far as to call me out on the ramp and tell me that tracking my duty times wasn't my responsibility...in front of the DO.

I'll never sign another one and will never require my pilots to sign one.

 

[imacdog]

That's true. It's a scummy way of doing business*, but it's still "doing business."

*I've signed a training contract. I had my eyes on the type and TPIC time (and I got them!), but I wound up leaving because they wouldn't stop asking me to break regs and demanded that I stop recording duty times on trip sheets. The CP went so far as to call me out on the ramp and tell me that tracking my duty times wasn't my responsibility...in front of the DO.

I'll never sign another one and will never require my pilots to sign one.

It's unfortunate that you didn't have a union to back you up in that situation.

 

[hogbody]

beitzelbaringer

 

[acpilot]

It's unfortunate that you didn't have a union to back you up in that situation.

Haha. You really don't know how this works!

A union would kill most small companies. Those small companies employ a lot of low time pilots.

 

[imacdog]

Nevertheless, the company was asking you to do illegal things, and you had no recourse but to leave. And yes, I have flown for small companies (five pilots) and large (over 3,000).

 

[B19 Flyer]

The difference is in the military you don't do it for money. You do it for service to your country. You sign up you are obligated to your country.

Training CONTRACTS prevent pilots from seeking employment at the highest bidder!

Why are TRAINING Contracts a good thing? But not a CBA? You LIKE contracts when they benefit management, don't you.

Please explain why a Training contract is OK but not a Union contract.

I never said I liked training contracts, I only responded to your post.

I wish there was a way around them but that is the only valve to ensure the investment when a pilot is hired. It wasn't that long ago that a pilot needed to pay $10 grand up front. Remember those days?

 

[gunfyter]

I never said I liked training contracts, I only responded to your post.

I wish there was a way around them but that is the only valve to ensure the investment when a pilot is hired. It wasn't that long ago that a pilot needed to pay $10 grand up front. Remember those days?

Ughh..

If its the only way ... why doesn't American, Delta, Southwest, etc.. have training contracts?

The way to ensure the investment is to PAY PILOTS MORE! At least $100K for first officers.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Good luck with that.

B19 is completely incapable of explaining or backing up any of the lies he spews. I have PROVEN him a liar on several occasions. All he does is bash unions and contradict himself by saying he has no problem with them. Whatever...

Not once have you ever proven me wrong and I've never said I had no problem with unions. I'll always have problems with unions.

You heard that DAL booted a ninth and last union out this week, right? 70-30 margin. They perhaps know something you don't?

 

[B19 Flyer]

It's unfortunate that you didn't have a union to back you up in that situation.

When a duty time is broken, is it the pilot or the company that is responsible?

Read the actual reg... it says who is responsible in the opening line, Part 135 or Part 121.

 

[B19 Flyer]

And before we get too far off track, I still haven't had my question answered yet on those perceived "freeloaders".

Why do you folks feel these pilots should pay for prior to April?

Are they not protected by the same contract that supposedly protects you from the evils of FLOPS?

You can't pick and choose...

 

[imacdog]

When a duty time is broken, is it the pilot or the company that is responsible?

Read the actual reg... it says who is responsible in the opening line, Part 135 or Part 121.

My line was in reference to his boss asking him to do illegal things.

 

[fischman]

Not once have you ever proven me wrong and I've never said I had no problem with unions. I'll always have problems with unions.

You heard that DAL booted a ninth and last union out this week, right? 70-30 margin. They perhaps know something you don't?

sigh...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__ojjFjeIK...ging-his-head-against-the-wall-ispc026073.jpg

 

[jonjuan]

Ughh..

If its the only way ... why doesn't American, Delta, Southwest, etc.. have training contracts?

The way to ensure the investment is to PAY PILOTS MORE! At least $100K for first officers.

They don't have to. Pilots are their own worst enemy. The lure is crappy first year pay which keeps job hopping down to a minimum. Heck, CAL 1st year is $26/hour with NO healthcare the 1st 6 months. They figure you get through that and you ain't going no where. In fact, very few do leave. It's the draw of seniority and hope of "people behind you."

 

[gunfyter]

They don't have to. Pilots are their own worst enemy. The lure is crappy first year pay which keeps job hopping down to a minimum. Heck, CAL 1st year is $26/hour with NO healthcare the 1st 6 months. They figure you get through that and you ain't going no where. In fact, very few do leave. It's the draw of seniority and hope of "people behind you."

Well ... other companies could make their jobs so no one would leave also. Whatever it takes, but don't hold people against their will with training contracts....

 

[fracjack]

And before we get too far off track, I still haven't had my question answered yet on those perceived "freeloaders".

Why do you folks feel these pilots should pay for prior to April?

Are they not protected by the same contract that supposedly protects you from the evils of FLOPS?

You can't pick and choose...

You won't. That was the original song the union sang until after vote for representation then conveniently used the majority of 1108 netjets vote to change the the policy. History shows netjets booted ibt1108 out and had to give up war chest of multimillions of $$$ to flops 1108. Tell me that is not greed? They cannot admit their mistakes and neither can the MIGS, they will continue to target no payers while continuing to take their money as association fees after cba which was also conveniently included in cba. IBT is a totally manipulative organization, full of empty promises,changes of policies,and no solidarity,which is exactly the same as the company operations. Oh, they both had their chances to do right and the workforce is the loser. Neither side has integrity and the MIGS members have little to NO union experience. Sacrificial pawns. Flame away at the truth MIGS.

 

[hogbody]

Fracjack wrote:
"History shows netjets booted ibt1108 out and had to give up war chest of multimillions of $$$ to flops 1108."

Let's get the story straight, lest someone believes the crap you are spewing. NetJets pilots chose to leave IBT 1108, knowing full well they could not take the money that had accumulated in the 1108 coffers (from their dues and those of the Flight Options pilot group). They did this because they believed that in the long run, they would come out ahead financially. And it was not millions of dollars.

 

[fracjack]

Fracjack wrote:
"History shows netjets booted ibt1108 out and had to give up war chest of multimillions of $$$ to flops 1108."

Let's get the story straight, lest someone believes the crap you are spewing. NetJets pilots chose to leave IBT 1108, knowing full well they could not take the money that had accumulated in the 1108 coffers (from their dues and those of the Flight Options pilot group). They did this because they believed that in the long run, they would come out ahead financially. And it was not millions of dollars.

The loan amount to the new NJ union from 1108 was a million+ and how much to the new nja union? and the total was over maybe 3 mil? since you CHOSE to leave you should have the exact number that I'm unable to find so please let us all know exactly how far my figures are off.The flops portion was a pitance of the contribution in comparison, so please find that number and dates between when flops became forced into paying and when netjets left. If you think forced is misleadiing then just give us all the total number of nj votes only and number needed for the bylaws change. Many flops pilots never received ballots in time if at all to vote for the new bylaws.There were accusations of corruption from netjet leadership and flops union leadership over the millions(yup,there's that word again)in the coffers. Prove my statement wrong or go home. You know the old axiom of "figures don't lie,but liars can sure figure". Someone has the figures they can share but won't since that would reveal the truth. ITS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY,get it?