Discussing Age 65 WITHOUT arguing the merits

[mach none]

The same group that lobbied for age 65, did nothing to help pass the law when they were on the bottom of the seniority list years ago.

Hypocritical? I think so.

 

[Andy Neill]

The same group that lobbied for age 65, did nothing to help pass the law when they were on the bottom of the seniority list years ago.

Hypocritical? I think so.

But not in the spirit of this thread. Now to get back to the point, is there something that can be done in terms of revising union contracts to reverse the effects?

 

[hockeypilot44]

My favorite are the NWA pilots who bid to sit sideways for a month or two because they turned 60 before the rule was changed. As soon as the rule was changed, every single one of them bid back to captain or wide-body first officer. The rule change was a shame. In the grand scheme of things, ALPA dropped the ball. ALPA should have organized a nation-wide shut-down or strike as soon as the first pension was taken away. Sometimes laws need to be broken in order to make sure the right thing is done.

On another note, I also think we should be cutting policians' pay and benefits. Afterall, our government is broke. That is their solution to the auto companies. Get pay cuts from your workers. Why would the government's solution be any different.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

It wasn’t too hard to predict this was going to happen. Even the brakes are slammed on at Southwest. I think everyone better start enjoying their seats. It looks like we’re all going to be there for awhile!

AA767AV8TOR

http://www.star-telegram.com/business/story/1091523.html

Pilot hiring is at lowest point since 9-11, firm say

By TREBOR [email protected]


Pilot hiring hit its lowest point last month since just after Sept. 11, 2001, as the airline industry shrank, according to a report released Friday.

Airlines hired just 133 pilots in November while laying off more than 400, according to AIR Inc., a consulting firm that focuses on careers and jobs for airline pilots. About 4,500 pilots are on furlough nationwide.

In November 2007, the industry hired 1,084 pilots and had about 2,700 on furlough.

None of the major airlines, such as Fort Worth-based American Airlines, United Airlines or Delta Air Lines, hired any pilots during the month, according to AIR. Only smaller regional carriers and corporate-jet operators hired.

Those jobs typically pay far less than flying positions at large airlines like American and United.

American has by far the most pilots on furlough, 1,969. That’s about 23 percent of the 8,379 pilots that AIR has listed for American.

United has the second-most pilots on furlough, 222, while Dallas-based Southwest has none.

Pilots on furlough keep their seniority and can be recalled to work when the airlines begin hiring. But they don’t receive wages or most benefits.

Furloughed pilots from large airlines rarely take lower-paying jobs with smaller carriers because they risk losing their seniority.

The big airlines have been cutting flights in recent months amid a steep drop in travel demand. More cuts are expected next year, which could lead to more furloughs.

TREBOR BANSTETTER, 817-390-7064

 

[mach none]

But not in the spirit of this thread. Now to get back to the point, is there something that can be done in terms of revising union contracts to reverse the effects?

With the elimination of the A plans, do we really need to change anything in the contracts other than pay and the DC contribution?

Without the A plan, there is no penalty for retirement before 60 or after 60. You go when you have had enough of this torture.

 

[alaskaplt]

With the elimination of the A plans, do we really need to change anything in the contracts other than pay and the DC contribution?

Without the A plan, there is no penalty for retirement before 60 or after 60. You go when you have had enough of this torture.

And/or elimination of the 50% lump sum payment from the A plan. They would flee like rats off a sinking ship. I actually hope we can eliminate this for all the people who didn't take the full retirement, plus 6 months of full medical, along with the 100k. It would be great to see them have to leave and not get the 100k that they turned down. I hope it is my vote that seals it.

 

[Andy Neill]

Now we're getting somewhere.

 

[mach none]

.....

 

[reroute]

IIRC, the age 65 change here in the US was LEGISLATED in Congress. Any contract REQUIRING pilots to retire earlier than this would most likely be considered illegal.

Now, negotiation of something that would make it ADVANTAGEOUS to retire early is certainly feasable.

But first you need to get your company to pony up any additional labor expense. Next, you would need to get the majority of the pilots to vote yes on any TA.

And, up to this point, not even the strongest airline in the land has been willing to do something such as this. They don't see any reason to do so, nor do they envision any enhancement to their bottom line as a result.

 

[Andy Neill]

IIRC, the age 65 change here in the US was LEGISLATED in Congress. Any contract REQUIRING pilots to retire earlier than this would most likely be considered illegal.

I don't agree on this point. The legislation does not allow those to fly airline beyond Age 65. There is nothing in the rule requiring the airline to retain those above any lesser age.

So if ALPA and a carrier agree that retirement is required at age 63, for instance, what would prevent them from doing so? Others have pointed out that this may be advantageous to the carrier by reducing the average longevity pay of the pilot force and I am sure many pilots would be glad to see the older pilots walk out the door a couple of years earlier.

 

[Flopgut]

Most contracts are evolving to a point there they only say "retirement age" not a specific number. Anything that goes at the age specific issue is completely rejected by my NC. The older you get the more age discrimination works in your favor I guess. Even if that means old people get to direct equal age discrimination onto the young, seems to not matter. If you're under 40 you've no provision for age discrimination claims, which brings me to another two points. One: the best way to get at what your working on is to go after the strategy set against you. For instance, if the fact that you are under 60 is the only enabler that allows another pilot to fly then you been given additional responsibility with no extra pay OR authority. See if you can go after that. Second, as bad as this is we need to try to make sure it doesn't get worse. Many pilots are retiring leaving those who are working past 60 of the almost single minded, universal opinion they should be able to work even longer. Work now to make sure 65 doesn't become 70. As I mentioned before, none of these guys have a plan. And the fact that you don't hear anything about how the recent economy has trashed their investment accounts should speak volumes. We're still two years away from the need registering with these guys because they're still fat and glowing from this recent bump.

Experienced pilot is an actual reg now. So just like FEs, FOs and regular CAs have different pay criteria the newly regulated position should have a separate pay scale.

And we all need to start asking these guys what their money situation is. They made it our business and we shouldn't shy away from asking them how they are saving/spending. I think we would all be happy to tell them what each of us and our families are not doing with the money we don't get because they are working. Right?

 

[Flopgut]

FWIW, A little extra for anyone reading:

As a junior ALPA member, does anyone feel any less responsible for senior members lost, damaged, or stolen retirement plan/funds? 60 went to 65. That's all; It didn't really change anything. If this profession gets burned again it's not like senior guys aren't going to not pull the same stunt. There are zero assurances and zero discussion on ways to change that. It would be nice if along with a new retirement reality the senior made an adjustment to seniority progression. There are steps that could be taken to absolve the now crisis reality of those of us who can afford to re-fund retirements the least, becoming the ones who get hurt the most. But rest assured, senior pilots will take no fewer steps than it takes to stuff a knife in their junior co-workers back.

That's reality going forward. So we can't really waste time trying to get back at them in our CBAs. We're going to have to affect a much grander revenge upon them. We're going to have to help them. All we can do is try to get the best deal we can for all members and hope everything doesn't get worse. Because if it does, the baby boomer generation will steal from us again. And you can see how willing they are to help their adjacent generations right now (junior can't move up, old guys couldn't come back) so don't count on anything from them.

Look to opportunities that offer a comprehensive improvement for all of us.

 

[Fubijaakr]

If you remove the early retirement penalty in contracts, that would encourage more people to get out prior to age 65. Our contract hits you for 7% per year you early out. That alone encourges guys to stay longer.

 

[Flopgut]

If you remove the early retirement penalty in contracts, that would encourage more people to get out prior to age 65. Our contract hits you for 7% per year you early out. That alone encourges guys to stay longer.

Andy: This is a fair minded, legitimate post by a guy I ususally disagrees with me (emphatically).

How do we remove early out penalty?

If you want to have a decent discussion this thread has a possibities.