Different Senority Lists Within A Company

[flyf15]

So, I'm having a thought here... I know it probably won't go over well, but hear me out.

A big problem that everyone recognizes with being an airline pilot is the inability to move to equal positions at other carriers... you're usually "stuck" where you are if you want to maintain your current pay and QOL.

What about the idea of seperating pilots... by fleet and seat... into different senority lists/employee groups. You want to change? You have to interview just like anyone else for the position. Yeah, it'd suck for pilots trying to move within a company, but it could be a good thing overall.

You work your way up as an FO till you meet the requirements that qualify you to interview to be a captain. You then interview and become a captain. But, you also probably meet the requirements to be a captain at other airlines... and can interview there too. In this new position, your senority starts to build relative to your senority within the captain group... just like it would normally. Maybe make an incentive of keeping your original senority date if you stay within the same company or something like that. Then from there you can interview to be a widebody captain, and so on. Or move to another carrier, and so on. Say you're a captain and want to move somewhere else but can't pass a captain interview? You can always interview to be an FO and become one of those... just as you would under our current system.

Oh well, let me know what you think... don't rip me a new one too badly.

 

[handlesaregay]

Didn't they already have this idea once? What you're talking about is a single pilot seniority list and I think the idea has been kicked around before. But you could never get everyone on board with such a scheme without an act of congress. Might make a good thesis for somebody though.

 

[flyf15]

Nah, not a single senority list industry wide. I'm talking about multiple senority lists within each company. Each time you want to move to another list (such as to go to captain, or to a larger/higher paying type), you have to interview for the seat... interviews for all lists being open to all those who meet the requirements, both current employees and off the street pilots.

 

[handlesaregay]

I reread your post, so you're saying if a Captain wants to jump ship to go to an airline with a better QOL does that means the FO's at that airline who want to upgrade have to leave to go to a crappy airline just so they can upgrade? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

[flyf15]

Well, when an FO is ready to upgrade... instead of just upgrading like we do now, he has to interview for the captain slot just like anyone would. But, he can interview at other carriers where he also meets the requirements to interview, not just his own. Feasbily, going from FO at one airline to captain at another.

Just like now, more appealing companies (higher pay, better QOL, etc) would have stricter hiring requirements and more difficult interviews. You wouldn't neccessarily be able to interview anywhere for a captain slot just because you qualify to be a captain at your airline.

 

[A Squared]

I reread your post, so you're saying if a Captain wants to jump ship to go to an airline with a better QOL does that means the FO's at that airline who want to upgrade have to leave to go to a crappy airline just so they can upgrade? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Uhhhhhh, why doesn't it make sense to you? That's the way pretty much the rest of the working world operates. Positions are filled by choosing from candidates from within and outside the company. It is only in parts of aviation and a very few other places that advanced positions are filled exclusively from the ranks of employees. In most places of work, employees don't have the expectation that they will advance to higher ppositions, merely because they have been there for a certain amoount of time. Nor do they hold the expectation that more qualified persons from outside the company will not be considered for those advanced positions. It seems to work for pretty much the rest of the working world.

 

[handlesaregay]

Uhhhhhh, why doesn't it make sense to you? That's the way pretty much the rest of the working world operates. Positions are filled by choosing from candidates from within and outside the company. It is only in parts of aviation and a very few other places that advanced positions are filled exclusively from the ranks of employees. In most places of work, employees don't have the expectation that they will advance to higher ppositions, merely because they have been there for a certain amoount of time. Nor do they hold the expectation that more qualified persons from outside the company will not be considered for those advanced positions. It seems to work for pretty much the rest of the working world.

That's a very nice trick trying to put me on the defensive, but if you're advocating a change you need to explain why your way is better besides "that's how the rest of the world works." I don't think I need to defend the status quo until someone actually makes a compelling argument as to how this would be better than the current system.

 

[A Squared]

That's a very nice trick trying to put me on the defensive, but if you're advocating a change you need to explain why your way is better besides "that's how the rest of the world works." I don't think I need to defend the status quo until someone actually makes a compelling argument as to how this would be better than the current system.

Hey, you're the one who has asserted that "it doesn't make sense" I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to support why you think it "doesn't make sense" What you have done is stated an opinion, and now you are objecting to being asked to support that opinion. Notice that except for my last sentence, there is no opinion, just statement of easily observed fact. In most other employment arenas, advancement is not a given based on how long you've drawn a paycheck, and in most fields, there is no guarentee that a higher position will not be filled by a more quyalified person from outside the company. Those are just facts, easily observed by anyone who has been employed outside of aviation.


So, once again, you haven't answered the question; why doesn't it "make sense" ?

 

[handlesaregay]

Hey, you're the one who has asserted that "it doesn't make sense" I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to support why you think it "doesn't make sense" What you have done is stated an opinion, and now you are objecting to being asked to support that opinion. Notice that except for my last sentence, there is no opinion, just statement of easily observed fact. In most other employment arenas, advancement is not a given based on how long you've drawn a paycheck, and in most fields, there is no guarentee that a higher position will not be filled by a more quyalified person from outside the company. Those are just facts, easily observed by anyone who has been employed outside of aviation.


So, once again, you haven't answered the question; why doesn't it "make sense" ?

You're attacking my statement while not making any real argument to the contrary. I said it didn't make sense to me because he never really explained why it was better than the current system. Notice I didn't say there was anything wrong with most "other employment arenas" doing it that way, but if he says he wants to have sex with a sheep and I reply that it doesn't make sense to me and then you chime in with "they do it all the time in other parts of the world" and demand that I justify my position that's not adding anything to the discussion. I'm simply asking for an explanation as to why this system would be better than the status quo.

 

[ackattacker]

At first blush it makes sense... but there is one major problem with such a system.

Management cannot and must not be trusted to arbitrarily determine who is most qualified for the captain position. In "most other industries" the measurement of performance is quite reasonably set by management (productivity, sales, etc). In aviation the primary focus must remain on safety... which is unfortunately often at odds with productivity. If the company simply promoted who they wished and hired who they wished into captain positions, they would fill those slots with yes-men, company men, people who never broke airplanes at outstations, people who never went missed...

In such an environment where you feel your upgrade is dependent upon performance, even otherwise safe pilots would certainly feel the pressure to hide their mistakes, bend the rules for the company, etc.

You can say that you will set the upgrade qualifications by some quantifiable measure of competency (simulator performance etc.) but it is far too easy for the training/checking department to be "influenced" by management in this regard, if they feel that they could hold some "squeeky wheel" in the FO position and promote captains with get-there-itis.

Talk to some people who work for Cathay Pacific about this....