Dials or Glass? Your Preference?

[FearlessFreep]

Just got back from my first experience with a glass cockpit as one of our aircraft has been modified with a setup similar to the 737-300 kind of arrangement. Well not my first experience, but the first in something other than a sad implementation of a first generation EADI/EHSI display. I have a fair amount of FMS experience in a non-automated installation so that capability is not new to me.

Overall I would say that the capabilities that the glass has over the steam gauges is certainly an improvement, but it certainly does not invalidate steam gauges. The one thing that I did find is that it does require a fair amount of heads down time when utilizing different modes. I can also see the how the glass cockpit could induce complacency. This is the simple byproduct of automation. How much of an affect does this kind of complacency have on continuing safe operations? Does the dependency on automation and the atrophy of previous skills represent a threat to us?

I endeavour never to lapse into complaceny - I can't as some of the aircraft in the fleet are hardball & the other is glass and there is no guarantee which one you will be flying. That should keep things interesting. I am looking forward to the challenge.

There are some things that steam gauges are just better at. You can just more quickly look at a regular analog gauge and extract your required information. I like having the full compass rose displayed. With glass the "center" position just gets too cluttered & the FMS mode does not show the same information as the VOR/LOC mode. With that mode you can instantly see any course deviations, something that is not readily apparent in the FMS mode other than looking at the little magenta course line. I miss the full functionality of the RMI, as on our aircraft selection of a ILS frequency on the Captain's side drops the any other VOR frequency in the FO's side, so you lose that positional awareness from the RMI. Of course with the glass you have your "moving map" so you can just "see" where the navaid, waypoint or airport position - of course you have to pick it out from all the other info.

Overall I think that the glass has the tendency keep people's eyes in the cockpit and not out. That has positive and negative implications. Though I could say that fixation on running the system could be a definite problem. I think the important thing to know is how to exit the automation quickly and effectively in a situation that might mandate that kind of action.

I like hand flying, so I utilized the system both hand flying & with automation. I am hoping that I never have to work somewhere where the only thing I am reduced to is being a button pushing system manager. Operating those kind of systems are not a problem for me, but just where is the fun in being only a computer operator?

I do find that the EADI & EHSI flat display to be superior to the somewhat three dimensional display of steam gauges. The flat screen display seems to remove any parallax effect that is inherent in the steam gauge design.

I remember watching a program on TV in which a head engineer at Airbus was being interviewed. His basic attitude was that the pilot was a superfluous un-needed part of the aircraft equation. His open disdain for having crewmembers even in the aircraft was disturbing. His feeling was that ALL control of the aircraft should be wrested away from the pilot and be completely controlled by automation, with the only job of the pilot being that of a system monitor. It almost seemed to be a power struggle between this engineer and pilots as a group. It would be an interesting discussion to see how many instances of incidents and accidents there are that are related to the failure of automation and the results of pilot intervention. We all know about the "pilot error" part.

Statisically we as pilots might be in the losing group - I will not go silently into that good night! Also remember there are three kinds of lies: Lies, D*mn Lies, and Statistics!

 

[dogg]

I really enjoyed the thousands of hours spent hand flying round dials, and then when I moved on to an airplane with an autopilot and round dials, I thought it could not get any better. And now for the last nine months it has been full blown glass. I hated it at first and could not hand fly glass at all but I have come full circle and now I can't imagine going back. I do switch to the approach mode on the map to fly any ILS/VOR type approaches but that is as raw data as I go.... I never thought that I would make the switch go figure......

 

[StopNTSing]

I like the SWA (and CAL) way...round dial presentation on EFIS displays. Gives you the SA and preserves the scan.

Not that I'm biased or anything...

 

[General Lee]

You guys at SW also ruined the upper panel of the new 737s. You like the recall buttons? An EICAS on the 757/767 makes it a lot easier to find out what is really wrong, instead of the annoying recall light and the master caution. Also, the push button technology on the 757/767 could have easily gone into the new 737 upper panel, but no again. Take a look at the 777 technology---which could have been used in the new 737NG aircraft. But Herb didn't want to confuse you guys.....

Thanks a lot.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[MOOSE]

I know this wasn't an option in the poll--but all glass with a HUD is the way to go. Situational awareness is there (both in the HUD and in the glass) if needed, and the HUD keeps your eyes outside as much as possible. The copilot can be heads-down typing 1,000-words a minute with one finger if he/she really needs to be, and good CRM no matter how the panel is configured, should always keep one set of eyes outside.

Just my $0.02 and humble opinion.

 

[meanstreak]

I agree, I just started training on the 737 and it's a step back in technology compared to the 717 and the Airbus. Boeing really dropped the ball in this department just to keep the airplanes similar for Southwest. In a perfect world I would take an Airbus cockpit and put it in a Boeing airplane. I'll pass on the joystick though!

 

[typhoonpilot]

In a perfect world I would take an Airbus cockpit and put it in a Boeing airplane. I'll pass on the joystick though!

So what you really should say then is to put a B777 cockpit in a B737

Typhoonpilot

 

[767200]

I like the SWA (and CAL) way...round dial presentation on EFIS displays. Gives you the SA and preserves the scan.

Just courious. Why did they keep the round dials on the EFIS737s????

 

[Mugs]

Dials, 707s, and fun F/As. Those must have been good days. Now look where we are. But hey, today we have glass and a PC work environment-- life is good!

 

[habubuaza]

I know that Ryan also has the round dial on glass set up in their 73NG's. I guess it's a boeing option. Not sure though. I thought that the FAA mandated a certain amount of commonality between the 737 Classics and the NG's to keep the same type rating. Anybody know for sure? I love glass technology, I must say that the MD88 did seem to have the best of both worlds. The determining factor for me as to when to put the autopilot on, depended on how lazy I felt or whether or not I had a lot of crap to talk about with the Captain I was flying with.

 

[Heavy Set]

Wow - this thread has returned... I have not flown glass but I have jumpsat in aircraft with it. I'm impressed but I still wonder if it leads to a deterioration in piloting skills - people just seem less atuned to their surroundings - kinda aloof. That's just my impression but I could be wrong.

I am especially impressed with those new microjets (Eclipse, Cessna Mustang, Adam A700). Have you seen the updated glass on those aircraft? And the owners/pilots will have probably 1,000 hours total.... Should be interesting around the pattern.

 

[jimcav]

It drives me nuts flyin with pilots who refuse to click off the magic once in a while and fly it like a real airplane. Clear and a million going in to ROC or GPT and these guys are doing the visual app. on the FCP till about 500 AGL. I thought we got into this game because we like to fly. Anyhow glass is great for situational awareness, and for low vis you can't beat autoland technology in glass airplanes.However when I get the visual on my leg it's autopilot, autothrottles, and flight director off. I still take pride in being a pliot not just a button pusher.

 

[Juvat]

It depends...

...is the glass half empty, or is it half full?

 

[RJP]

If the 777 had steam guages would you hand fly it more often?

Oooh, good point. Glass has nothing to do with using the AP.

 

[Airpiraterob]

wait till you fly glass in good turbulence at night, it gets all blury and the speed/altitude tapes are runnign up and down all the time......id prefer all steam gauges in those conditions, otherwise i likem glass. i dotn find it encouraging complacencey at all. i was complacent to begin with so theres no effect here nah really its still got your basic six, just compacted and in one small screen so youre still scanning if youre hand flying, just not moving your eyes as far.....and youre still getting the same radiation youd get at home from your CRT computer screen.

 

[mach none]

I prefer glass, but which ever one pays the best. I vote for a super cub with no gauges!

 

[AK737FO]

Boiler Room

Steam power baby! I'll take the round dials any day.

By the time I hang up my hat, the 700 will be considered old technology. I'm enjoying the heck out of flying the old stuff now, because it won't be around much longer (2007 supposedly for the 200).

It is alwys fun to have one of our SEA or LAX guy in the jump seat. You hear them say things like, "how do you do an arc without a map?" or "how do you do that without your noodle on the purple line?" Ummmm, I use the RMI and I know where I'm at in my head... Now if i could only figure out a way to fly the 200 and get PV layovers in Feb life would be perfect!

I have flown glass and the 700 rocks for situational awareness, but there is no doubt that after a few years of all glass, a guys basic skills will be hurting. Some of my SEA friends crack me up when they say they fly the 700 without the autopilot. Their idea of "flying it" consists of turning off the flight director for a visual. I have heard from instructors that the #1 maneuver in SEA that needs "extra" training in recurrent is the visual approach. This is sad, but it is a bi-product of glass.

 

[On Your Six]

I heard someone say that glass is like early retirement.... I tend to agree with that but I am sure that flying skills are deteriorating considerably. But you just can't have the same situational awareness without the glass. Pretty soon we will all be outsourced to the robots anyway...

 

[ILStoMinimums]

I'm on round dials now in the Twotter. But, believe it or not, we are getting all glass panels very shortly. Suppossedly the only dials left will be the engine gauges. Wonder how thats going to affect the guys flying it?

 

[StopNTSing]

Some of my SEA friends crack me up when they say they fly the 700 without the autopilot. Their idea of "flying it" consists of turning off the flight director for a visual. I have heard from instructors that the #1 maneuver in SEA that needs "extra" training in recurrent is the visual approach. This is sad, but it is a bi-product of glass.

Wow. That's the most telling evidence I've heard yet that Airmanship is indeed a dying craft.

 

[Mugs]

On a slam-dunk type of visual approach especially, when the work load is high, why not turn all that stuff off? If one guy is concentrating on slowing down and getting down, why should the other guy have to be messing with the MCP panel so that the flight director looks pretty and the autothrottles are in the right mode? You end up with too many eyeballs looking inside rather than outside. Once established and stabilized, you can then bring the goodies back on line if you want to. By this time, the other guy won't need a third hand to assist.

 

[UALjan15]

Glass vs. Steam? Glass, baby....no contest

I think the hand-flying discussion is interesting. I'm a hand-flyer up to at least the flight levels, but usually use the AP on approach until "cleared visual" or near the marker. The reason I don't hand-fly more descending is that I get tired of asking for the PNF to spin the knobs and push the buttons. I've kind of got used to hand-flying more going into the "spoke" airports and doing more AP when flying into the busy hubs.

 

[F/O]

I'm on round dials now in the Twotter. But, believe it or not, we are getting all glass panels very shortly. Suppossedly the only dials left will be the engine gauges. Wonder how thats going to affect the guys flying it?

I don't know your situation, but I would think you'll be getting pretty basic glass on an aircraft of that age. Like an EADI + EHSI, as opposed to a PFD/MFD setup.

So probably, it won't affect your pilots much. They will still have the same 6-pack, just with two EFIS tubes replacing those two instruments.

 

[F/O]

The reason I don't hand-fly more descending is that I get tired of asking for the PNF to spin the knobs and push the buttons.

That's why you turn off the FD as well!! Then you don't have to command any button pushing at all, just ask the other guy to do whatever he needs to do to back you up

 

[ILStoMinimums]

I don't know your situation, but I would think you'll be getting pretty basic glass on an aircraft of that age. Like an EADI + EHSI, as opposed to a PFD/MFD setup.

So probably, it won't affect your pilots much. They will still have the same 6-pack, just with two EFIS tubes replacing those two instruments.

Actually to clear things up we are getting Capstone Phase II installed which has a PFD dipsplay (both side) and a MFD.

 

[potrack]

Glass, of course??

Who wants to work when you can "Arm" something else to do it for you?

Notice guys who are "Real" pilots that hand fly to level-off still follow the flight director? They are in a stabilized climb with the A/T on just climbing?

 

[flyfastinmy10]

I flew both glass and steam at my last company. One day, glass and the next steam. I don't think my instrument skills deteriorated. I found that when flying steam it required much more work when I was most busy.



Anytime something new comes available to make the job easier, it is resisted, until you become comfortable using and understanding it. Next up will be the HUD. Previous was the GPS.



Glass is the clear winner.

 

[mach none]

I would like to take issue with this. You make it sound as if those outside of the "arctic eagle" base cannot fly the jet visually. You are wrong my friend. I will leave at that.

Steam power baby! I'll take the round dials any day.

By the time I hang up my hat, the 700 will be considered old technology. I'm enjoying the heck out of flying the old stuff now, because it won't be around much longer (2007 supposedly for the 200).

It is alwys fun to have one of our SEA or LAX guy in the jump seat. You hear them say things like, "how do you do an arc without a map?" or "how do you do that without your noodle on the purple line?" Ummmm, I use the RMI and I know where I'm at in my head... Now if i could only figure out a way to fly the 200 and get PV layovers in Feb life would be perfect!

I have flown glass and the 700 rocks for situational awareness, but there is no doubt that after a few years of all glass, a guys basic skills will be hurting. Some of my SEA friends crack me up when they say they fly the 700 without the autopilot. Their idea of "flying it" consists of turning off the flight director for a visual. I have heard from instructors that the #1 maneuver in SEA that needs "extra" training in recurrent is the visual approach. This is sad, but it is a bi-product of glass.

 

[AK737FO]

Gotcha!

Easy Mach... You know that the Arctic Eagles can fly circles around any SEA or LAX guy - just ask us!
This company has an outstanding group of aviators. We have to, due to the environment in which we operate.
Unfortunatley, there are those who rely so heavily on the magic, that they stuggle if the magic is turned off and they have to look outside to fly a visual. I've seen it from the JS- cleared for a visual or runway change and both guys go heads down and start typing! The runway is right there fellas, no need to type, just fly.

Try turning your flight director off for a takeoff and see if the Captain doesn't have something to say. Try disconnecting everything at TOD, no autothrottles, no flight director, no map - go raw data HSI and see if the captain doesn't get a little grumpy. That is what I'm talking about. Now put one of those captains inbound to rwy 2 at OME, and you know what happens.

I am sure that you do a fine job and work hard to keep your skills sharp. Not everyone "outside" does.

On another note. Didn't you want to bid ANC? Did you get a slot on the last bid? It is a wet, slushy, sloppy day up here today - winter is on the way!
AK737FO

 

[mach none]

No worries mate, I just get tired of some attitudes that indicate the ANC base are the only ones that can fly and everyone else still has training wheels. I also agree that we have some exceptional aviators and some that do to much typing. You will start to see that with the 400 base in ANC and the introduction to RNP. The NG, you cannot even get a basic HSI display.

I did not bid ANC. I love the summers, but no thanks on 10 months of winter and darkness. I flew the 200 for two different companies and have no desire to do that again and I have the 4/7/8/9 in SEA. I would also be divorced if I tried getting my wife up there.

Easy Mach... You know that the Arctic Eagles can fly circles around any SEA or LAX guy - just ask us!
This company has an outstanding group of aviators. We have to, due to the environment in which we operate.
Unfortunatley, there are those who rely so heavily on the magic, that they stuggle if the magic is turned off and they have to look outside to fly a visual. I've seen it from the JS- cleared for a visual or runway change and both guys go heads down and start typing! The runway is right there fellas, no need to type, just fly.

Try turning your flight director off for a takeoff and see if the Captain doesn't have something to say. Try disconnecting everything at TOD, no autothrottles, no flight director, no map - go raw data HSI and see if the captain doesn't get a little grumpy. That is what I'm talking about. Now put one of those captains inbound to rwy 2 at OME, and you know what happens.

I am sure that you do a fine job and work hard to keep your skills sharp. Not everyone "outside" does.

On another note. Didn't you want to bid ANC? Did you get a slot on the last bid? It is a wet, slushy, sloppy day up here today - winter is on the way!
AK737FO