destruction of unions

[jayme]

It blows my mind how easily the right has brainwashed you fools into thinking that unions are bad. Strong unions = a strong middle class. No unions = a strong upper classs.

BTW, pilots are labour, not management.

 

[densoo]

If a public sector union demands a high salary, the spineless public officials give it to them to preserve their reeelection possibilities, they go to the market (i.e. me), they MAKE me pay higher taxes at the threat of going to jail or losing my property.

And then you vote them out of office--that is also the free market.

 

[realityman]

The public sector unions are the first to be targeted because they are easy targets.

The important thing is this: Once the right to organize is forcibly taken from one group, more groups will be targeted and the previous group will be used as precedent. If you think, for a moment, that your union is the only rightous one and that it will never be faced with the level of scrutiny that public sector unions are facing...you're sadly mistaken. It's coming. The teachers and other public employees will be first; you will be next.

BINGO!!!

I will bet my next ten years of salary that private sector companies who have unionized work forces are practically drooling at the thought of eliminating public sector unions! What a great FIRST STEP in coming after the private sector unions.

Anyone who thinks this will end with just the elimination, or neutering, of public sector unions isn't seeing the bigger picture.

Some of you may want to read Flying the Line to get a better understanding of where our industry would be without our unions. And then decide how good a thing it is to watch the attacks on unions being successful.

This will most assuredly not end with the public sector unions.

 

[GoPats]

BINGO!!!

I will bet my next ten years of salary that private sector companies who have unionized work forces are practically drooling at the thought of eliminating public sector unions! What a great FIRST STEP in coming after the private sector unions.

Anyone who thinks this will end with just the elimination, or neutering, of public sector unions isn't seeing the bigger picture.

Some of you may want to read Flying the Line to get a better understanding of where our industry would be without our unions. And then decide how good a thing it is to watch the attacks on unions being successful.

This will most assuredly not end with the public sector unions.

How right you are (unfortunately). Public sector unions are incidental to the big picture here. Airline management's wet dream is union elimination.

 

[flythere]

Do you admit Fox News is on the right like MSNBC is on the left? or not?

Have they changed at all since the Obama administration called them out on being on the right? I missed most of the O'reilly interview with Obama and the hole perspective thing. Just saw clips of it. I don't watch Fox News or MSNBC that much.

Here is a definition for Moderate since you don't seem to know it. It annoys me when you talk about one extreme and not the other. It is being phony.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/moderate

mod·er·ate (mdr-t)
adj.
1. Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme: a moderate price.
2. Not violent or subject to extremes; mild or calm; temperate: a moderate climate.
3.
a. Of medium or average quantity or extent.
b. Of limited or average quality; mediocre.

*********4. Opposed to radical or extreme views or measures, especially in politics or religion.*********


_________________


Here is the def of phony if you need that too.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/phony

pho·ny also pho·ney (fn)
adj. pho·ni·er, pho·ni·est
1.
a. Not genuine or real; counterfeit: a phony credit card.
b. False; spurious: a phony name.
2. Not honest or truthful; deceptive: a phony excuse.
3.
a. Insincere or hypocritical.
***********b. Giving a false impression of truth or authenticity; specious.********

It's obvious that you are slanted towards a liberal opinion, that's your choice, maybe your upbringing had something to do with it!

I've been in a union or association for the past 22 years in some way shape or form, and have seen enough first hand to form my own opionion, based on my experiences. As I stated before, unions are a necessary evil, they do good, BUT they too like big business can get a little carried away.

So there's plenty of room on both sides! My point with you, is that you immediately go right to name calling instead of having a conversation, which is too bad! It appears your emotions get the best of you in a hurry!

Which explains why liberals have such a hard time getting a point across! You seem very typical, as soon as someone disagrees with you, you immediately dive into the Saul Alinsky playbook "Rules For Radicals" And, if you can demonize me, call me a name, in this case "Liar" and "phony" then you can try and marginalize or discount what I have to say!

I respect you for your opionion and will not demonize or call you names! That's not what free speech is about.

I look forward to your reponse!

 

[pilotyip]

It blows my mind how easily the right has brainwashed you fools into thinking that unions are bad. Strong unions = a strong middle class. No unions = a strong upper classs.

BTW, pilots are labour, not management.

Unions kill companies with excessive demands, and make them non-competitive. In 1994 the UAW pushed GM into a deal it knew it could most likely not fulfill. It gave unlimited medical and COLA to retirees. GM knew a lengthy strike might drive them into BK. They had exhausted the equity markets, and borrowing was the only solution. Much like living off your credit cards. So they bet on maybe things would work, but they knew in the end they were in trouble. The power of a potential union strike drove them to make a bad management decision.

As they lost market share to foreign rivals, Detroit's auto makers and the UAW lost the power to set standards on labor costs. Yet during the prosperous 1990s, they seemed reluctant to accept the fact that their business model -- with its expensive defined-benefit health and pension programs -- was driving the domestic industry toward ruin. The UAW and its biggest employer have effectively conceded that their golden age of dominance is over.

GM executives consistently acknowledged that it couldn't be competitive in North America without a fundamental change in its labor-cost structure.

The UAW got a harsh lesson in the consequences of bankruptcy proceedings when former GM parts unit Delphi Corp. sought Chapter 11 protection in 2005, and pushed through substantial job and wage cuts under a deal subsidized by GM.

GM's obligation to provide health care for 412,356 union members, retirees and surviving spouses lies at the heart of yesterday's agreement. Even after a partial overhaul of retiree health-care benefits in 2005, GM still faced a $51 billion obligation to UAW members. Health-care obligations added more than $1,900 to the cost of every GM vehicle sold in the U.S. in 2006, a heavy burden given that many GM vehicles sold for less than competing Toyota vehicles.

And then you vote them out of office--that is also the free market.

as they are doing in Wisc, Tuesday will prove how effective this is.

BTW: From the history books, it is 1941, Russia and Germany sign a non-aggression pact. The US is mobilizing, the arms are going to the UK under lead lease. Russia dosn't like arms going to someone who is a war with their buddy Germany. So the communist party calls for strikes throughout the US armaments industry using organized labor. Now June 1941 Germany invades Russia, Russia needs lean lease materiel. Hopkins tells Stalin that the strikes are limiting US arms production, suddenly the strikes diminish. History of labor unions, it is in the history books.

 

[Smarta$$]

Private schools take in less per student and preformed better. They get better teachers for less money. Why? I would guess it is because if they don't perform they would go under and bad teachers are fired. Teachers do it because they love it not for the govt bennifits.

With spelling and grammar like that, you may want to argue a different topic.....

 

[Smarta$$]

I disagree that private school teachers are better than public school teachers. My kids go to private school and there are many more dynamics at work other than the quality of the teachers (demographics, parent involvement/investment, social class, etc). There are good and bad teachers on both sides.

Exactly right. I say again, exactly right. If you can't understand and acknowledge this reality, you're to stupid to even participate in this debate.

 

[Smarta$$]

No teachers lost their jobs, which would have happened as a cost savings under the union plan, taxes are going to drop in Wisc. BO won't even go near Wisc, because he knows Walker has a very good chance of winning the election and he could not stand the association with a union failure. The unions have spent so much money fighting this change throughout the US that they will be close to $70M less to support the presidential election in the fall. The tax paying public is tried of seeing a public emplyee retire at age 45 on 3/4 of their pay with lifetime COLA and unlimited medical. Almost no one in the private sector has that.

Talk about union spending, walker has spent TEN TIMES AS MUCH money as his opponent. TEN TIMES as much. Something fox news won't tell you.

 

[Smarta$$]

Nah I don't watch MSNBC or read Huffington. Never mentioned I did. Your assumptions and attacks are hysterical (hysteria). Fox news is a bigger joke than MSNBC because they deny what they really are. I hear they like to kiss rich arse a lot. Keep attacking moderates and see what that gets you in November.

What annoys moderates are extreme people claiming they are moderate or the norm when they are not.

I agree. Both have political perspectives. Fox is utterly dishonest about what they are. Also much more deceptive with their methods. I will give them credit for being crafty and effective.

 

[Kalifornia]

Unions kill companies with excessive demands, and make them non-competitive. In 1994 the UAW pushed GM into a deal it knew it could most likely not fulfill. It gave unlimited medical and COLA to retirees. GM knew a lengthy strike might drive them into BK. They had exhausted the equity markets, and borrowing was the only solution. Much like living off your credit cards. So they bet on maybe things would work, but they knew in the end they were in trouble. The power of a potential union strike drove them to make a bad management decision.

As they lost market share to foreign rivals, Detroit's auto makers and the UAW lost the power to set standards on labor costs. Yet during the prosperous 1990s, they seemed reluctant to accept the fact that their business model -- with its expensive defined-benefit health and pension programs -- was driving the domestic industry toward ruin. The UAW and its biggest employer have effectively conceded that their golden age of dominance is over.

GM executives consistently acknowledged that it couldn't be competitive in North America without a fundamental change in its labor-cost structure.

The UAW got a harsh lesson in the consequences of bankruptcy proceedings when former GM parts unit Delphi Corp. sought Chapter 11 protection in 2005, and pushed through substantial job and wage cuts under a deal subsidized by GM.

GM's obligation to provide health care for 412,356 union members, retirees and surviving spouses lies at the heart of yesterday's agreement. Even after a partial overhaul of retiree health-care benefits in 2005, GM still faced a $51 billion obligation to UAW members. Health-care obligations added more than $1,900 to the cost of every GM vehicle sold in the U.S. in 2006, a heavy burden given that many GM vehicles sold for less than competing Toyota vehicles.




as they are doing in Wisc, Tuesday will prove how effective this is.

BTW: From the history books, it is 1941, Russia and Germany sign a non-aggression pact. The US is mobilizing, the arms are going to the UK under lead lease. Russia dosn't like arms going to someone who is a war with their buddy Germany. So the communist party calls for strikes throughout the US armaments industry using organized labor. Now June 1941 Germany invades Russia, Russia needs lean lease materiel. Hopkins tells Stalin that the strikes are limiting US arms production, suddenly the strikes diminish. History of labor unions, it is in the history books.

Yea, that's one extreme. The other extreme are the countless deaths and accidents caused by poor working conditions. Ludlow Massacre. Slavery is basically capitalism without boundaries.

It's taken hundreds of airplane accidents over the past 100 years to get to all the regulations in place in this industry.

Let's not forget that the management teams have their own unions in the form of trade associations, wealth management groups, lobbyist, lawyers,.

 

[flythere]

I agree. Both have political perspectives. Fox is utterly dishonest about what they are. Also much more deceptive with their methods. I will give them credit for being crafty and effective.

Then where will a person get their news and information from, if we can't trust any of these aforementioned news outlets? So you say FOX is so corrupt and untrustworthy, yet the other networks are just as bad! Who do we trust then? Do we trust anonymous posters on flightinfo.com? Do we trust bloggers who have an agenda? Just who then do we trust to give us honest answers to tough questions????

Do we trust our unions who have an agenda, some good, some bad! Do we trust our employers who provide us a job and paycheck? Do we trust elected officials who have an agenda?

I think it's up to the individual to get as much info as they can, then it's up to them to make an informed decision. But I think we ALL need to respect each others opinions!

 

[J3guy]

It blows my mind how easily the right has brainwashed you fools into thinking that unions are bad. Strong unions = a strong middle class. No unions = a strong upper classs.

BTW, pilots are labour, not management.

Ummm, who pay's the high taxes that support union's inflated benefit packages?? That's right, middle class. I don't know what teachers are paid across this country. I am familiar with what they are paid in WI. It is very high with benefits you just don't see in the private sector.

My wife attended a highschool in wi were a teacher had a large number of complaints of sexual abuse from kids with disabilities. The union fought for him and he still has his job and pension. I don't even have a pension!

I would challenge all the "underpaid" teachers to quit there jobs and get into social services. Help those that are underprivileged. Help those that have mental retardation or autism. Those that desperately need help and few are willing to help. You won't make more than 30k, crappy medical, no pension, at best a lousy 401k match, long hours, difficult situations to handle, occasionally hit in the head by a milk crate by a 15 yr old retarded child, you get the idea.

We all need to evaluate what is important in life. For me its not making the most and having the most toys. I don't believe that is our purpose in life.
If you only make 70k as a teacher where is the problem? Can you not live comfortably on 70k?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Ummm, who pay's the high taxes that support union's inflated benefit packages?? That's right, middle class. I don't know what teachers are paid across this country. I am familiar with what they are paid in WI. It is very high with benefits you just don't see in the private sector.

My wife attended a highschool in wi were a teacher had a large number of complaints of sexual abuse from kids with disabilities. The union fought for him and he still has his job and pension. I don't even have a pension!

I would challenge all the "underpaid" teachers to quit there jobs and get into social services. Help those that are underprivileged. Help those that have mental retardation or autism. Those that desperately need help and few are willing to help. You won't make more than 30k, crappy medical, no pension, at best a lousy 401k match, long hours, difficult situations to handle, occasionally hit in the head by a milk crate by a 15 yr old retarded child, you get the idea.

We all need to evaluate what is important in life. For me its not making the most and having the most toys. I don't believe that is our purpose in life.
If you only make 70k as a teacher where is the problem? Can you not live comfortably on 70k?

Posterboy for the demise of the middle class, he engineered the destruction of the private sector with this drivel and wants to drag the public sector into the sewer along side himself. Instead of championing election reform to rid the public sector of career politicians, and the inept he thinks that being chronically underemployed will give the masses plenty of time to fix the wrongs in this country. Newsflash, the private sector gutted the unions first, the public sector is just following along. Destroying the middle class will only do one thing, shift more wealth to the top, just like it has happened.

 

[densoo]

Unions EQUAL a middle class. EOM.

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=is...of the middle class&sa=N&biw=480&bih=268#i=57

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...88.2-4j1j3j2.10.0...0.0.86_EPPfbh28&mvs=0#i=7

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...88.2-4j1j3j2.10.0...0.0.86_EPPfbh28&mvs=0#i=0

http://www.willisms.com/archives/unionmembershipdown.gif