destruction of unions

[realityman]

Here's an example of how unions have cost American factory workers jobs.

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-01-22/tech/30652107_1_foxconn-iphones-apple-executives

I don't see where they mentioned unions anywhere in that article.

I did see where it mentioned the Chinese government subsidized the company. So, are you trying to tell me that while our government should be cutting costs, it should also be shelling out more money to subsidize certain companies? Is it the unions who cost us the jobs, or our government who didn't subsidize a new glass factory for Apple?

I saw in the article where it mentioned the Chinese used a whole bunch of "cheap engineers" who were kept in dormitories so they could be available 24/7. So you feel this is a good thing? And it mentioned where the Chinese woke thousands of workers in the middle of the night to have them do the work. Well, at least they're paid well with a good benefits package. Oh, wait.......

Yes, you can certainly get so much more done when using virtual slave labor with no protections.

Here are a few things the article failed to answer. Would Apple have sold fewer iPhones if they had gone with a US company and it had taken months longer to develop the screens by going with a US company for the glass? Are the unions at fault because Steve Jobs set a schedule that could only be realistically accomplished in a country where the government would throw money at them and the workers are nothing more than indentured servants? Did the article discuss the working wages and conditions for most factory workers in China?

So is the Chinese society the model on which you think we should base our own? Is this where we should go? Then absolutely, down with the evil unions!

 

[realityman]

By the way, while some here are applauding the 'victory' against public unions, anyone bothered to ask what pay and benefits concessions those politicians who have led the charge against the unions have taken? Aren't they public employees too? Has anyone who sent money to support governor Walker asked him about the cuts he's made for himself and his staff?

Hmmmmm, I wonder why it is these politicians want everyone focused on other things such as the evil unions.........

 

[Texx]

A cautionary tale regarding unions particularly in Wisconsin. Many may not like the messenger (Rachel Maddow of MSNBC), but worth listening to as Wisconsin will be the model for the continuing destruction of our jobs nationally that began in earnest in the '80s.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/

Regarding the economy it has been said, "as goes California so goes the country." However regarding labor, "as goes Wisconsin so goes the country." In just one year the teachers' union membership fell by 45%, and the second largest union fell by 55%.

Loss of good paying jobs and loss of political clout in a downward spiral.

You lost my interest when you said Rachel Maddow.

 

[livin'thesim]

Private sector union workers = The working man.
Public union employees = They are not a union. They are a cartel.


First, anyone who thinks a public employee union is even remotely like a private-section union is simply wrong.

Second, it is public unions that are giving unions a bad name, for the most part. Private sector unions always have to balance their demands with a realistic assessment of what the company can give. Public unions don't need to worry - they just demand higher taxes.

Third, for the most part, private sector unions have been more or less responsible in the exercise of bargaining power.

Public unions have often behaved like spoiled children.



There is one other very, very very big difference:

Private sector union workers most often are the producers of our nation's wealth, they produce goods and services.

Public employees often are overpaid to perform ridiculous, unneeded jobs, and stand to have luxurious pay, benefits, and pensions, all out of the pocket of the REAL WORKING MAN.

The smart private-sector unions members will be sitting on the sidelines here, while secretly being glad that public employee unions have finally experienced a few roadblocks.

Private sector unions often are fighting battles with greedy company management. In contrast, public union employees are the real "owners" of local governments, even as they PRETEND to be "labor".


This is not our battle. Just because a cartel call themselves a "union", does that mean we are automatically supposed to be sympathetic to them?

They would gladly throw us under the bus. We should not spend one second worrying about the fate of public union employees. The outcome of this will have very little effect on private sector unions.

 

[densoo]

You lost my interest when you said Rachel Maddow.

Yes, that was a risk, but I wanted to name names up front so you wouldn't feel like you had been tricked into watching it. The facts contained in the segment are well worth getting past the messenger to hear the message though.

Additional warning: she interviews Ed Schulz, another MSNBC commentator.

 

[livin'thesim]

densoo-

Private sector unions do not create cartels, where the public is FORCED to but their services from one union.

Let's try a thought experiment. Suppose an airline union tried to negotiate a contract that forced the people of a certain state or region to ONLY fly on the union's airline.

Now we have a cartel.

When I insist on a fair wage, I use my COMPETING AIRLINE'S contract as a point to negotiate with.

With public employees, there is no competition. the public has no choice. If the union can stack the local government with enough chumps, they will get everything they want, and the taxpayer has to choke it down.

Well, the taxpayers have had enough of this one-sided raping of their finances. They have elected politicians to be THEIR MEC and rein in the excessive compensation.

No one can give a reasonable explanation of why my public servants should be compensated at a rate FAR, FAR, FAR higher than the people who work to pay their salaries.

Why should public unions not share in the pains of recession? Private unions often do.

Once again, the public unions should not be allowed to be called a union, because they are far more powerful than that. They create a cartel of labor, and instead of trying to get a fair wage from a greedy management team or greedy owner, they try to extort outrageous wages and pensions from-

THE WORKING MAN, via property taxes.

 

[livin'thesim]

By the way densoo-

Anything coming from that source is suspect in terms of "facts". That source is nothing but a blowhard emotionally-charged fountain of estrogen-fueled thinking.

And Maddow is pretty crazy too.

 

[JT12345]

Well you guys do not mention that States compete against each other also. The more taxes the harder it can be to attract business. Many businesses setup shop on state borders to take advantage of both states. Other things play to a businesses needs than taxes like location and logistics.

So there is competition, and people move out of states for these obvious reasons.

Cali is a great example with their mass exodus to AZ. WI and MN with their border crossing. NY and CT even. NJ and NY.

 

[livin'thesim]

While your statement is true, it does not represent a clear case of benefiting from marketplace competition. Many people are unable to move, and therefore cannot participate in this.

I will say that it is deeply satisfying to watch the destruction of Detroit and other blue-state idiocracies due to the stupidity of government and public unions.

Meanwhile, Texas thrives.

 

[flythere]

Well you guys do not mention that States compete against each other also. The more taxes the harder it can be to attract business. Many businesses setup shop on state borders to take advantage of both states. Other things play to a businesses needs than taxes like location and logistics.

So there is competition, and people move out of states for these obvious reasons.

Cali is a great example with their mass exodus to AZ. WI and MN with their border crossing. NY and CT even. NJ and NY.

And why are folks, businesses and regular folks leaving, particularly those with money? Because of the taxes! And why are the taxes so high? They have to pay for all the people that aren't working, or who are and are getting paid cash under the table and not paying their fair share! Not to mention all those over inflated wages and benifits of the public employees. Look at San Jose, that is just one city where city employees are raking in the big bucks, all at the expense of the tax payer! What about that city outside of LA, where all those city officials where making 6 figures!!

I don't think there is a war on unions, or anybody wants to dismantle the untions. I think what most of us want is fair compensation and benifits. But when the public employees are making more than private sector and they are unwilling in times of budget crises to negotiate, then that creates a lot of heartburn with us tax payers!

Look at the UAW when the automakers where in trouble, they where demanding that all those workers continue to come in and sit in a room for 8 hours and watch tv and play video games, all while still getting paid!!! Just one example and there are more! What about SEIU spending millions of dollars, (Dues money) to fund and protest banks and corporations, the very corporations that pay those dues! Busing in voters and protesters to the Nevada elections two years ago! What about busing hundreds of protesters to the home of executives on a Saturday morning to protest!

Those are all great examples of wasting hard earned money for an agenda! I think these are some examples of why everyday folks are getting fed up with the unions! And maybe, by giving workers the option of not paying union dues, we can force the unions back to what they were intended to do, work to protect workers rights not push political agenda's in hopes of getting a pay back at some point!

 

[flythere]

In reference to San Jose,

Don't get me wrong, I think cops and firefighters do one hell of a job, and they deserved to be compensated, but some of these numbers are a little high! You be the judge!

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-...ent-at-50-threatens-solvency-muni-credit.html

http://www.sanjoseinside.com/news/e...2011_poliice_fire_mayor_city_manager_council/


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57392812/calif-city-seeks-to-escape-soaring-pension-costs/

Can anybody here say that is reasonable given todays hard times? Nobody wants to take their retirements away, simply renegotiate to a lower rate, so the city/state can get it's finances back in order!!

 

[shroomwell]

Imagine if the United CEO, was also the lawyer for the ALPA MEC, and go that job due the support of ALPA. That is a huge conflict of interest in a bargaining situation. This exactly what happens in public sector unions. The unions use their power and money to buy off the politicians on the other side of the bargaining table. Then it is the taxpayer who get hosed. Now the unions get big raises and the politicians use those raises to justify more raises for themselves. Rinse and repeat and that is how you get the situation we are in today.

Go check any local election and see the primary backers for the candidates. On both sides the D's and R's are receiving money from the public unions. The most pernicious are the public safety unions. They will play both sides to guarantee a positive outcome for themselves. That is how you end up with millionaire police and firemen throughout the country.

 

[shroomwell]

Try this website out for a dose of reality.

http://www.calculateyourpublicpension.com/CA/


The money to pay these pensions has to come from somewhere. Look in your wallet because that is were it is coming form.

 

[pilotyip]

Try this website out for a dose of reality.

http://www.calculateyourpublicpension.com/CA/


The money to pay these pensions has to come from somewhere. Look in your wallet because that is were it is coming form.

Hey! stop that this is FI, we do not deal in reality on this site

 

[dragontamer]

Right on Pilotyip & FLYTHERE:beer:

By the way, while some here are applauding the 'victory' against public unions, anyone bothered to ask what pay and benefits concessions those politicians who have led the charge against the unions have taken?

http://paul.senate.gov/?p=news&id=418

There you go Realityman. Admittedly, there aren't many of them on either side--but differences are there. Vote for an entitlement, "not my fault", the man's got me down candidate or vote for guys who are favoring responsible, live within your means, look to yourself first candidates.

Whatever happened to Nancy Pelosi's private 757?

 

[MECH]

What I find ironic is that the majority of people on this site are either excited about Delta's TA or don't think its enough.

But who is going to pay those wages? The traveling public. I bet if you went on any travel blog 90% of the people on it, would think pilots are over paid. Also they would gladly let the pilots take a pay cut so they could have lower fares!

Do we want to force the same on policemen, firemen, ATC, Teachers...

These are the very people that can afford to fly on our airplanes (this especially true at Southwest/Jetblue). Why would we want to slash their pay. It would also hurt us.

So what is a reasonable solution?

 

[imacdog]

What I find ironic is that the majority of people on this site are either excited about Delta's TA or don't think its enough.

But who is going to pay those wages? The traveling public. I bet if you went on any travel blog 90% of the people on it, would think pilots are over paid. Also they would gladly let the pilots take a pay cut so they could have lower fares!

Do we want to force the same on policemen, firemen, ATC, Teachers...

These are the very people that can afford to fly on our airplanes (this especially true at Southwest/Jetblue). Why would we want to slash their pay. It would also hurt us.

So what is a reasonable solution?

What a stupid argument. If the traveling public decides that Delta is paying their employees too much and are charging too much for their product, they can take their business somewhere else. Want to tell me how this is applicable to taxpayer-funded public employees?

 

[realityman]

Right on Pilotyip & FLYTHERE:beer:





http://paul.senate.gov/?p=news&id=418

There you go Realityman. Admittedly, there aren't many of them on either side--but differences are there. Vote for an entitlement, "not my fault", the man's got me down candidate or vote for guys who are favoring responsible, live within your means, look to yourself first candidates.

Whatever happened to Nancy Pelosi's private 757?

That's great. I agree with your thinking. Wish there were more like him to vote for.
I just get a kick out of the folks who say they're sending money to governor Walker to support his actions against the public unions, but don't bother to ask him what cuts he's making to his own salary and benefits, as well as those to his staff.

In a way, the politicians are far worse than the public unions. At least the public unions have to make a show of fighting for more money. The politicians just GIVE themselves whatever they want. And people actually send them additional money. Interesting stuff.

The teacher's unions are an interesting study in contradictions. As a parent, I want the best teachers available to be teaching my kids. Good pay and benefits will bring out the best. On the other hand, if there is a bad teacher not doing a good job, it's very difficult, if not impossible, to get rid of them thanks to the union. Also, I don't like my taxes going up.

The question is, what's the best answer? Many here seem to think having laws made that neuter the unions is the best solution. I just don't agree. Especially since I just don't see it ending with public unions. Precedent has been set. It'll end up being very bad for the private sector unions.

What's even more interesting to me, is that private sector companies have found very effective ways of fighting unions. There are other companies who have made an entire business out of busting unions. I'm not necessarily 'for' these union busters. Just pointing out that there are tactics that can be employed to mitigate many of a union's demands. So how hard do any of our government people really try? How hard have they really fought the unions in the past? Or is there possibly a bigger agenda involved with the way they're handling things now?

These new laws are BS, and is just a way of positioning things to 'help out' their corporate buddies when the politicos decide they need to 'do something' about those greedy private sector unions who are sucking the profits out of their companies. How un-American of us union members!

 

[pilotyip]

What I find ironic is that the majority of people on this site are either excited about Delta's TA or don't think its enough.

But who is going to pay those wages? The traveling public. I bet if you went on any travel blog 90% of the people on it, would think pilots are over paid. Also they would gladly let the pilots take a pay cut so they could have lower fares!

Do we want to force the same on policemen, firemen, ATC, Teachers...

These are the very people that can afford to fly on our airplanes (this especially true at Southwest/Jetblue). Why would we want to slash their pay. It would also hurt us.

So what is a reasonable solution?

How about private contractors for gov't work, have to compete to offer the best value. No more 20 year 90% retirements, where it is based upon your last year's wages and everyone get to be Fire Chief at $150K/yr for their last year, with unlimited cola and medical. That would be a start.

BTW Some of these guys retiring age age 40 from a city here near Detroit, collect full pension and thne get hired as new hire in another gov't depart and take home $150K+/yr. The city is about to file for BK and get a Emergency Manager with dictatorial powers to balance the budget.

 

[livin'thesim]

I would be willing to let public employees unionize if they can be forced to compete with other labor groups.

This is a decisive win for the battered taxpayer and working man.

PUBLIC EMPLOYEES HAVE A CARTEL, not a union.

They are not us, nor are they even like us.