Dems & Reps

[Iceman21]

Re: For Super 80 and Timebuilder

After a brief internet search on these topics I concluded that the faithful will always be able to assign some redemptive value to any perceived flaw of Christ by the skeptic.

There is nothing that Christ had/has to redeem, and not one person needs to come be his lawyer. What skeptic reads about Jesus losing his temper and then states that he is therefore is flawed only makes me think that that person doesn't take the story into context and knows nothing about what he/she is reading.

 

[mar]

To respond or not to respond...

Ok then. Christ is perfect.

I wish everything was so easy.

So black and white.

You're right. I'm wrong.

I really must learn how to polarize complicated ideas--it makes the world so much more efficient.

Like I was saying, it's pointless to discuss these things.

 

[Iceman21]

Re: To respond or not to respond...

It isn't pointless to discuss things of this nature, if you have quest for knowledge and understanding.

But I do wonder what makes you so skeptical about Christ flying off the handle when it was within his right to do so. Do you think the Pope would go off if he woke up to a bunch of pan handlers outside the Vatican, making a mockery of what it stood for? Or perhaps the President waking up to the same thing on the White House lawn.

 

[surfnole]

Surfnole: I am curious in what crazy parish you grew up in...I have never heard of such things. Pro-abortion priests? Are you kidding? Let me answer some of the points you raised:

I didnl't say priests, I meant the parishoners (not all of them). I'm always amazed at news reports about how many US Catholics disagree with the pope on critical issues such as abortion. They seem to think if their opinions is different, they can disagree regardless of what the bible says or their church teaches. With better bible teaching, the church could change some of those opinions.

What makes them free to just choose to violate their churches teaching? Why not just leave the church? Have they studied the bible to see if the church is right? I especially get a kick out of the congressmen/women who call themselves Catholics, yet believe little of what their church actually teaches ( as witnessed through their legislation)

Perhaps this is because Catholicism is somewhat like Judaism. There are many people who call themselves Catholic because they grew up in a Catholic family, and they don't know what Catholocism teaches. Its almost heridtary.

My Dad and Mom both learned Latin before they were nine years old. Under the old system, you could go into any Catholic church anywhere in the world and still understand the Mass.

Thats an interesting point I never thought of. Have you heard about Mel Gibson's upcoming movie *The Passion*. I saw the trailer, and its incredible. Mel belongs to a sect that believes that Latin should still be used.

BTW, I attended Catholic shools and catechism, but I chucked it all before high school. When I reached a crisis in my life, I started attending the Catholic church again and enjoyed the priest and fellowship. However, it wasn't until a protestant friend sat me down and showed me the gospel and my need to ask Christ into my life that it all finally made sense. I guess I was ripe at the time, but I wonder how long I would have continued to attend Catholic church until I heard that same message.

After getting involved with some campus Christian groups, I learned more about the bible and felt like I belonged in a place where I could learn a lot more about it. I found several things I did not agree with about the Catholic church including:

- The immaculate conception (Mary being the mother of God, so she must be sinless)
- Purgatory (not in the Bible)
- The infallibilty of the pope
- losing your salvation, gaining it back again, losing it again, gaining it back again, losing it again... ( I shall lose none that my Father has given me)
- Mortal and venial sins (Not in the Bible)
- Church doctrine formulated from scripture and tradition

and many others.

I am thankful for the Catholic church because when I went looking for God, I didn't question whether he or Jesus existed. I knew that from my training

But I'm not sure I would characterize Surfnole's experience with the Catholic church as "bizarre". Incomplete perhaps.

Perhaps, but I attended a few parishes

After all, one shouldn't receive communion without first making a confession. I think this point is a fairly important one when comparing and contrasting Protestant and Catholic doctrine

True, we should confess our sins, but its not a prerequisite to anything other than salvation and forgiveness. The protestant churches are light on this topic, and it would do good if people could go to a person and confess their sins. Protestants do believe in confession however.

James the half-brother to Jesus (oops)

LOL

I'm sorry that you cannot study a work like the Pieta' or the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and not see anything more than the result of someone who was trying to cash in his chips at the Eleventh Hour

I was in Italy two weeks ago and saw both these. I sat in the Sistine chapel for an hour, and I could have stayed a lot longer. I liked the Last Judgement on the front wall of the sistine chapel too. I also saw Pieta

 

[Super 80]

Re: For Super 80 and Timebuilder

I mean, forget about how Jesus lost his temper with the money changers and certain aspects of his relationship with Mary Magdalene.

This idea that we can't show emotions is a pagan concept from the Greeks called Stoicism. This is not supported by the Bible. However, it has crept into Christianity along with other pagan notions and is practiced in some denominations and upheld in some schools of theology. Stoicism is also held in our Western culture to be an ideal for a man, kind of like John Wayne.

Anger is not a sin. You can be angry. Hate is not a sin either. I can give you lots of examples where God says what He hates. But we are not to let anger be our continual state of mind, or it will give the devil a foothold. Nor are we to treat each other in anger. (EPH 4:25-32)

There are a lot of examples of Jesus showing emotions. The shortest verse in the Bible is John 11:35, "Jesus wept." Jesus occasionally showed anger as well. In Mark's account of the healing of a man's hand (MK 3:1-6) on the Sabbath, he says Jesus looked at them in anger.

Jesus was trying to teach the greater aspects of the Law. The Pharisees of that day had forgotten the essence of the Law and instead made rule after rule which had the effect of weighing people down. These rules are in the Talmud. They are literally the doctrine of men and not given by God. (MT 15:9 and MK 7:7 quoting from ISA 29:13)

So to see why Jesus was angry, read the whole chapter of MT 23. This is a condemnation of man's ways, and concludes with a longing for Israel, but it is her unwillingness that prevents God from giving them his "over-sheltering" love.

In your example of the money changers, I don't think you understand about the relation between God and money. God is not looking for you to be rich. I disagree with some TV preachers that give wealth sermons. I also disagree that we should all be in poverty too, the Bible teaches stewardship, not wealth or poverty. But money concerns itself with the things of this world. We are not to store up treasure on earth.

Money can also become a thing of worship. That is why you can't serve both God and Mammon, or Money. Here in MT 6:24 is the basis for Paul saying the love of money is the root of evil (1TI 6:10) and Peter expresses the relationship we are to have between God and money in 1PE 5:2-3. Furthermore to see what happens in a Capitalistic system built on greed read REV 18:11-13 and see what is the final commodity of commerce.

So when you bring this kind of greed into the Temple, where the pilgrims to the Passover have to make certain preparations (and they didn't have refrigerators, or Igloo ice boxes to carry their food with them) and the locals are charging exorbitant prices for these wares, then you have a situation that is drawing people away from God, and burdening the people trying to celebrate the Seder.

Now in the example of Mary, she is from a family in Galilee that Jesus and His disciples are very close to. Martha her sister and other women (LK 8:3 lists two more and says there are others) in this area do provide for Jesus and the disciples during their ministry. While Jesus ministers to Israel, He is not working to support Himself.

Jesus has delivered Mary from seven demons. Jesus raised her brother Lazarus from the dead. Mary and Martha have both listened to Jesus' instruction and they are both believers.

That she loved Jesus is evident in washing His feet and her listening to Him, but if there is anything improper it would be amazing to see Mary Magdalene with Mary His mother together at the end of His life. They were both there at Jesus' Crucifixion and at the Garden Tomb at His Resurrection.

If you want to be a skeptic, and say well the Bible didn't put it in because it wouldn't support this nonsensical worship, then why didn't the people of the day bring that out? The Pharisees knew about the gossip about Jesus' birth. They accused Him of being born out of wedlock (JN 8:41). If there was anything to be known, in that small world back then, it would have been brought out and you wouldn't have thousands of converts from the areas where Jesus lived.

 

[Timebuilder]

And Timebuilder, what can I say that hasn't already been said except that works of art by the faithful only serve to glorify god and the church.

A lot of really great art can be produced, giving the glory to God.

My only point is that the act of producing art, or the acts I mentioned, do not lead to salvation.

They may lead to many things: inspiration, awe, joy, etc, but not slavation. Only trusting Jesus is the way laid out in the Bible.

And if the Bible is what it says it is, then its way is the only way to salvation.

I saw the Pieta in the 60's. It truly is the work of a master sculptor. It is amazing how the folds of the cloth are so delicate, yet are also marble. Isn't Michaelangelo the guy who said that when he gets a block of marble there is already a statue inside, and he sees his job as removing the extra stone that is surrounding the finished piece? What a fascinating view of his art.

 

[fLYbUDDY]

and certain aspects of his relationship with Mary Magdalene.

After a brief internet search on these topics I concluded that the faithful will always be able to assign some redemptive value to any perceived flaw of Christ by the skeptic.

How did this happen? Why do people insist Jesus had an affair with Mary Magdalene, and why do people use the internet, church, discovery channel, history channel, and any other man-made institutions or philosophies to create their own view on who Jesus was/is. I have family in Jersey that told me, when I visited them last spring, about the whole Mary Magdalen thing. I asked them to show me that in the Bible, and they said "well we can't find it but it was on the history channel or something" . No offense, but that is the thing that keeps people separated from God. They give more authority to man, than God's word. Don't be so narrow-minded to listen to what people say. That would be like sheep following each other to the slaughter. Think for yourself. Sit down for 20 mins a day and go through the Bible in a year. You don't need a church, preacher, internet source, or whatever to do that. If people would do that there would be a lot less misconceptions about the Word of God. I hope I don't sound like I am venting or trying to be angry at anyone, it is just frustrating that people are being mislead about the truth and missing out on an awesome life with God. I know it can happen to anyone and I don't want to see it happen to anyone. A friendly challenge: Study God's Word (The Bible) on your own (without outside influences) and draw a more valid conclusion.
-Gary

 

[Timebuilder]

Mary Magdalene?

I think there is a better chance of Christ having a relationship with Mary Matalin.

 

[Super 80]

Re: Mary Magdalene?

I think there is a better chance of Christ having a relationship with Mary Matalin.

Oh that one's a hoot. She's married to ole' snake eyes James Carville.

I can envision him slithering around the tree saying, "No you won't die..." except ole James would say it more like:

WhattayameanGODtoldyayacanteatsometinindisgarden? DatsdamostridiculousthingIveeverheard. HejesdontwantyoutabelikeHIManknowgoodandevil.
AnspeakingofevildemRepublicansaretryingtokilloldfolkandstarveyerkids.
DaystarteddiswarinIraqjesforoilandderebuddiesatHaliburtonaregettingrichanourboysaregettingshotupinanotherVietnam.
AnnowKingGeorgewholiedaboutweaponsofmassdestructionwants87Billiondollars!
Disiswhywevegonefroma10TrilliondollarsurplusunderBillClintondamosthonorablePresidentweeversawtarecorddeficitstoday.
Wellhellmissyyoumightaswelltakeabiteandgetdisshowontheroad.