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Delta's taking the path of Pan Am by trying to become a long-haul carrier

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DCMartin

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Posts
94
Reuters
Delta eyes premium routes, service to survive-WSJ
Monday August 16, 12:28 am ET

NEW YORK, Aug 16 (Reuters) - The chief executive of Delta Air Lines Inc. (NYSE:DAL - News) may add more longer-haul routes, spend more on customer service and amenities and cede some U.S. market share in a bid to help ensure the No. 3 U.S. airline's survival, the Wall Street Journal said on Monday.

In discussing the plans of Gerald Grinstein, the chief executive, the newspaper cited people familiar with his thinking and accounts of recent discussions among senior management and investors.

"Our aim should be to become a long-haul carrier," Grinstein told employees this summer, according to several people who were present, the newspaper said. Asked whether that idea sounded like the last, failed strategy of now defunct Pan Am in the 1980s, Grinstein said, "No, that's the future," the newspaper said, citing the people.

The shift in strategy would take place as Atlanta-based Delta tries to negotiate $1 billion of concessions from its pilots, and staunch a near $4 million a day cash drain in the first half of this year.

Delta, which ended the half with $2 billion of cash, last week said it is tapping its cash reserves to pay expenses, and said it expects its cash balance to fall at a level consistent with the first half decline.

Analysts have said the carrier might need to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection as soon as this autumn.

Grinstein believes Delta can -- much as Starbucks Corp. (NasdaqNM:SBUX - News) has for coffee -- charge more than low-cost carriers, maybe 10-15 percent more, by providing better service, at a time security concerns have made flying less pleasurable, the newspaper said.

Counter to longtime industry conventional wisdom, Grinstein is suggesting that Delta abandon some U.S. routes into regional hubs, and expand routes and amenities for flights across the Atlantic, the United States and to Latin America, the paper said.

Seventy percent of Delta passengers connect through one of its U.S. hubs, but many of the flights lose money, it said.

Grinstein has also criticized Song, Delta's low-fare airline-within-an-airline launched last year.

At recent meetings, he called Song and the former Delta Express "mistakes," joking that he would like to add "Swan" before Song's name, the newspaper said, citing unnamed people present at recent meetings.

Delta shares closed Friday at $3.41, after earlier falling to $3.38, their lowest level in more than 20 years.



Grinstein is suggesting that Delta abandon some U.S. routes into regional hubs
I wonder which hubs he's talking about.

he called Song and the former Delta Express "mistakes," joking that he would like to add "Swan" before Song's name
Wow, thats a big friggin surprise. Im glad he has a sense of humor about it.
 
I think that will be the plan.

Mainline -- larger jets for Longhaul.
Domestic flying -- mostly via regional jets.

With the regional feed DAL would not be losing their O & D to other carriers.
 
DCMartin said:
I wonder which hubs he's talking about.
I keep hearing "Dallas," nothing official, but makes sense with American and Southwest in town.
 
Grinstein has also criticized Song, Delta's low-fare airline-within-an-airline launched last year.



At recent meetings, he called Song and the former Delta Express "mistakes," joking that he would like to add "Swan" before Song's name, the newspaper said, citing unnamed people present at recent meetings. Delta shares closed Friday at $3.41, after earlier falling to $3.38, their lowest level in more than 20 years.



Only a matter of time before the "General" comes on spouting his holy perspective.....
Maybe he should suggest changing the topic of the thread to something other than "Delta's taking the path of Pan Am".....
 
How are they going to get more slots in Asia and Europe? The Asian and European markets are even more competitive than here in the states. United and Northwest have all the slots in China and Japan locked up in terms of US carriers. Europe...forget it...too many European carriers. Yes, they are going down the same path as Pan-Am...everyone knows how that story ended.
 
DL becoming another PA? Those who refuse to remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

One wonders if after DL goes under, will some rich playboy purchase the name and copyright, slap them on some well-aged 72's and fly cut rate flights out of former Air Force bases and remote carribean islands?

All I have to say is that the abosolute worst treatment I ever received while non-reving or js'ing was from DL. In fact, if I took the top ten worst experiences, eight easily involved DL. And if I listed the top 50 reasons our customers come to us for charter service, 35-40 of those reasons involve shoddy service from DL.

In fact, from our prespective the best that could happen would be DL to continue along their current path, as that seems to be the best thing for our business.
 
Jungle_Jet said:
DL becoming another PA? Those who refuse to remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

All I have to say is that the abosolute worst treatment I ever received while non-reving or js'ing was from DL. In fact, if I took the top ten worst experiences, eight easily involved DL. And if I listed the top 50 reasons our customers come to us for charter service, 35-40 of those reasons involve shoddy service from DL.
Delta's employees are among the best in the business. The problem is that the Company can not make a profit at 80% plus load factors and any airplane with 80% plus loads ( figure 100% at peak times ) is miserable. Gate Agents have time to be pleasant at 70% loads, 100% capacity stretches any system.

Pilots paid 58% to 100% more than their industry peers are stuck demanding other employee groups take pay cuts to below market averages to offset the pilots' way above market ( even after concessions ) compensation package.

Management has a role to play in this, but the Delta pilots are strangling their own golden goose. For years they have been told they are the best pilots on the planet and by golly, they believe it. Reality is that they are average pilots, Delta may be a below average airline and that pride simply comes before the fall.

Pan Am's mistake was insufficient feed for their long hall operations. Pan Am's percieved arrogance had much to do with why the US government refused may of the routes that Pan Am needed to fill 747's.

The Pan Am pilots did try to do the right thing on many occassions. For one, they fought alter ego Pan Am carriers by putting Ransome ( Pan Am Express ) on their seniority list.

However, the real reason for Pan Am's failure was lack of a domestic feed system. It appears Grinstein wll use DCI in that role and the Delta MEC will have to try to secure jobs for around 1,500 pilots. The RJDC has a well aimed and armed torpedo targeted at ALPA's jets for jobs protocols if they should surface on the DAL property. What a perfect storm....
 
Fins is right:

Adding to Pan Am's woes was a complete lack of feed, VERY high cost for codeshare. The final nail in the coffin was Flight 107, destroyed over Lockerbie.

Let's hope never to repeat the last event, with ANY carrier.
 
There is a statement that lacks credibility: "Fins is correct."



First of all, we don't know exactly what the plan is. It seems like DFW might be closed, but we don't really know about any other hubs, like SLC. The last time I went through there I talked to the SLC station manager, and he told me Grinstein personally told him that he (Grinstein) wanted to take back the whole B Concourse and fill them with our planes (maybe Shuttle 737-300s) and fly them back to Montana again. That was from THE SLC STATION MANAGER. This was three weeks ago.

And then what about that lounge show in Atlanta two weeks ago with the management honchos? They kept pressing the EMB 100 seater.


Also, Grinstein, in this article, said nobody would fly on RJs longer than 2 hours. There would still be feed, and obviously RJs won't be flying between ATL and most of the large FLA cities, since we can still fill 764s. Also, throwing new 70 seaters on routes that now have MD88s will alienate many business passengers.

We shall see how much of his "plan" is accepted by the board.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
grinstein is making the right choice.

I think Grinstein is making the right choice. There has to be a focus for any business struggling to compete. One has to do something better that the competition can't. Delta seems to me to have a huge advantage against upstart LCCs.

The Starbuck's spin was put on the Wall st. Journal article. Starbuck's of course became a billion dollar company right under the nose of Mcdonald's and dunkin donuts. They focused on coffee. they did it better. they charged more for it. Sounds so darn simple !
 
Sounds like he wants to cherry pick some of the most profitable routes out there, with little or no LCC competition. But, he will not give up his main hubs--like ATL and CVG, because if he downsizes there, he will risk the others growing at a faster rate. I see him dropping some unprofitable areas, but he won't just stop feeding his hubs with mainline aircraft and revert to only RJs---no way. If that happened, then there would be very little businessman feed. I also think that the INTL arena is an area we needed to exploit better, since there is a lack of LCCs on INTL routes.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General:

You talk about "business man feed," but that in the traditional sense really doesn't exist anymore. Perhaps on a very small scale will a buisness send an exec regardless of cost.

A couple of months ago I was dead heading to DFW and sat next to a pretty highly placed Nokia exec., he told me that they contract a service to shop for ALL of their fares, they forward him all of the options and he chooses...BUT if he doesn't choose the ABSOLUTE cheapest fare, his boss is immediately emailed about his choice. So this is the fate of modern execs., take the cheapest trip (even if it is on an RJ) and suck it up, or get reported to your boss.

The real exec., aren't wasting their time on Commercial airlines, they are buying or chartering private airplanes. (I have an inside track on this and am aware of explosive growth as airline service decays).

Overall I am a fan of GG, at least I think he talks directly to people and doesn't dance around more then he has too. My personal view is that concentrating on long-haul trans con and international is a good idea, that's what DAL does best. But it unerves me when they talk about becoming the "Starbucks" of aviation, as it has been prove time and time again that people might pay a premium for their coffee, but WON'T for their air travel. (at least not the rank and file passenger).

My personal and only marginally informed view is that DCI will grow with more domestic and shorter international routes, and larger planes. Concurently I think DAL will be reduced in size and become a leaner organization. I don't necessarly think ASA/CMR will get the growth, (sure why not give it all to those Mesa pukes). I don't say this to be inflammatory, it's just my read....
 
Again, I'll state that the lack of customer service from airlines is the biggest factor driving growth of 135 ops like ours, TSA isn't tthe only reason. People are being asked to ante up absurd amounts of cash for an inferior product, then being treated by the ground staff as if the staffers are doing the customer a favor by even acknowledging their presence.

Again, based on my personal experience and talking to our customers, DL is by far the worst at this, with US coming a close second. Neither I nor the paying customer care whether the reason is that they are understaffed, as someone else offered as an excuse. I'm paying my money, I'd like to be treated as though you give a da_n about me. Most DL ground staffers probably wouldn't pi$$ on you if you were on fire right in front of them, and the other legacies really aren't any better.

Combine that with the fact that I can get them to their destination quicker, without a layover in $hitty CVG or Hartsfield, treat them with respect and do it for LESS then the majors; the writing should be on the wall.

Either change your business dynamics or go the way of Pan Am.
 
What is that old man thinking at Delta...??

Pursuing the high end, premium long haul market....?
Well... Delta may be able to hide in the int'l long haul over
the Atlantic, Pacific and South America for a while...

But the domestic transcon market is rapidly becoming the domain
of numerous LCCs and the Caribbean is already in their sights too...

Sounds like a very limited, shrinking domestic plan.....

And if you abuse the customers long enough in the international market... someone will step up to serve the needs of the long haul intl markets as well...

Too bad greed and adversarial labor/mgt relations are going to destroy another airline....
 
8vATE said:
What is that old man thinking at Delta...??

Pursuing the high end, premium long haul market....?
Well... Delta may be able to hide in the int'l long haul over
the Atlantic, Pacific and South America for a while...

But the domestic transcon market is rapidly becoming the domain
of numerous LCCs and the Caribbean is already in their sights too...

Sounds like a very limited, shrinking domestic plan.....

And if you abuse the customers long enough in the international market... someone will step up to serve the needs of the long haul intl markets as well...

Too bad greed and adversarial labor/mgt relations are going to destroy another airline....
What about the Skyteam concept???...I guess now they will compete with their former codeshares...

If I really want a cheap fare to Europe with hot F/A's I'm going to Virgin. If I want first class service, Lufthannsa, BA, Air France...the list goes on and on. Asia? I'll go with Cathay, ANA, JAL, Singapore Airlines. Korean Air, etc...better service, better looking F/A's etc. Europe and Asian airlines dominate their long haul markets respectively. I can tell you that China and Japan (#2 & #3 GNP in the world) will not give anymore landing slots out...they are trying to grow their own airlines.

Delta better worry about Airtran...they are kicking their a$$ in the A.T.L.
 
House X,


What? Airtran is kicking our a$$ in ATL? Hmmmmm. OK. Right. What? We still fly to many many more cities from ATL than Airtran does, and those city pairs are not affected at all. Sure, we watch them closely and they are a great competitor, but we have defended ATL well. They have had to branch out to other cities to grow, and they have hurt other carriers as well.


8vate,

There will likely be a "shrinking" in DFW, but the other hubs are just speculation right now. Grinstein has to have his "plan" approved by the Board, and that is not guaranteed. Also, we really don't know exactly what the full plan will be, since this article was based off of things he supposedly said---never directly to a reporter or directly quoted. We all knew he wanted to expand on the INTL side (I was told he liked 12 INTL cities that he wanted new service a few months ago), and we also knew DFW was likely on the chopping block. A lot of this is simply speculation, and we will all eventually find out what the deal is soon.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Dallas on the chopping block??

This has been rumor for some time. What does everyone think Dallas will look like for Delta two years from now?

Will ASA, Skywest and CHQ still fly out of there a lot?

Will mainline still do some flights to ATL, NY area, and CVG but just not have planes based there?

What are you guys thoughts?

Jet
 
There might be a fairly large pullout, maybe only leaving service to ATL, CVG and JFK for INTL departures. I don't really know, but those ASA airplanes may be used somewhere else. We shall see soon.....???


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
I'd bet on a major pullout from DFW. The equipment could be transferd to East Coast markets. DFW is the weak link in the DAL system. I'd guess on some growth out of ATL, DCA, LGA, JFK, and BOS. PHL could also be in play. Huge O/D and big international markets. This pending the USair situation.

DAL must grow in 1st class cities. DFW is run by AA. Perhaps a LLC may make some inroads there, but it'll be a nasty fight. CVG and SLC are weak markets. They're ok for connections. BOS, NYC, PHL, DC, and ATL are anchor cities.
 
General Lee said:
House X,


What? Airtran is kicking our a$$ in ATL? Hmmmmm. OK. Right. What? We still fly to many many more cities from ATL than Airtran does, and those city pairs are not affected at all. Sure, we watch them closely and they are a great competitor, but we have defended ATL well. They have had to branch out to other cities to grow, and they have hurt other carriers as well.

Bye Bye--General Lee
Uh General, I hate to break it to you seeing as how you seem to dislike anyone with more financial understanding than you; but AirTran is kicking your a$$ in ATL in the one area that counts:

The Bottom Line.

I mean have you seen any recent DAL filings? Compared them to AirTran?

Plus, I'm willing to bet that they'd rank much higher then glorious Mother Delta in customer satisfaction surveys. I know they do with people I talk to (biz travellers, the ones that count).
 
Jungle jet,

Man, you are a financial GENIUS. OF course we are hurting more than they are right now---primarily because we can't raise fares for some reason(the ATA wants labor costs down at all airlines), and we have more airplanes that require more high priced fuel. We have to adjust our costs, and come up with a viable plan---and that is also obvious and being worked on at this moment.

As far as cutomer satisfaction and the "business guy"---Airtran doesn't fly to every city that Delta does, and we have millions more frequent flyers than Airtran does, and I am willing to bet that our INTL Business Elite service is better than Airtran's first class service. Yes, we actually need to get rid of a lot of our front line employees that are old and jaded---that is true. To improve on that aspect, we will need to bring back some youth and spunk....


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
Jungle jet,

Yes, we actually need to get rid of a lot of our front line employees that are old and jaded---that is true. To improve on that aspect, we will need to bring back some youth and spunk....


Bye Bye--General Lee
True, but why would anyone with youth and spunk want to work for DL? Falling payscales, reduced benefits and a dying company....I doubt there are a lot of high quality folks who want that.
 
Medflyer,


Love your "dying company" remark. Funny, I think the AA managment people said the same thing before they got refinancing the next day after they got huge concessions.

But, I can see why you and Fins want us to take huge cuts now, we all can see why. They will come for you next.



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
I see him dropping some unprofitable areas, but he won't just stop feeding his hubs with mainline aircraft and revert to only RJs---no way. If that happened, then there would be very little businessman feed. I also think that the INTL arena is an area we needed to exploit better, since there is a lack of LCCs on INTL routes.


Bye Bye--General Lee
I met four passengers yesterday that fly us every week to LGA to go to work. Three on one flight even knew each other from taking the flights every week. I had a chance to have a small conversation with all of them, thanking them for their business etc. During the conversation I asked them several questions one was does this flight usually operate on time for you? Three of the people said yes, "usually", I just wish it was an hour earlier. One person on another flight said, it is a direct flight, what more can you ask for?
Business travelers want rewards and frequency. I'm not buying all of the business travelers don't like RJ's talk. Sure they might not like an RJ on DCA to DFW, but who does?
 
General,

You can keep a lot of those routes that we don't fly. There is a reason we don't, money or the slim margins of it rather. But hey the pie is big enough for us both in ATL. You keep your part and we will see if we cant find some cookies and milk out side of the ol' ATL. Unlike Delta I don't have to fly every dang airport to float my CEO's ego of how great we are or aren't based on the number of destinations we fly or don't fly and the glorious Int'l routes. ATL DAY pays the bills just fine.
 
Jungle_Jet said:
Again, I'll state that the lack of customer service from airlines is the biggest factor driving growth of 135 ops like ours, TSA isn't tthe only reason. People are being asked to ante up absurd amounts of cash for an inferior product, then being treated by the ground staff as if the staffers are doing the customer a favor by even acknowledging their presence.

Again, based on my personal experience and talking to our customers, DL is by far the worst at this, with US coming a close second. Neither I nor the paying customer care whether the reason is that they are understaffed, as someone else offered as an excuse. I'm paying my money, I'd like to be treated as though you give a da_n about me. Most DL ground staffers probably wouldn't pi$$ on you if you were on fire right in front of them, and the other legacies really aren't any better.

Combine that with the fact that I can get them to their destination quicker, without a layover in $hitty CVG or Hartsfield, treat them with respect and do it for LESS then the majors; the writing should be on the wall.

Either change your business dynamics or go the way of Pan Am.
It may be no excuse that they are understaffed when you "paid your money" for the flight, but just how much did you pay? $29 Roundtrip?
 
FLB717,


Ok, deal. You guys stay with cities like DAY and Moline, and we will concentrate on Aruba, San Jose Costa Rica, Buenos Aires, Rome, and other cites like that. Deal.........(But we can't give up on LGA, DCA, PHL, LAS, LAX, EWR(we would like to give up EWR), ORD, and a few others.....)

Bye Bye--General Lee
 

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