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[PCL_128]

Who else outsources -900's?

You're looking at aircraft type, rather than size, which really isn't relevant. United outsources large numbers of EMB-175s, which can seat up to 88 passengers. They just have them configured with fewer seats by installing first class, which is exactly what Delta does with the -900s in order to comply with DALPA's scope language. You also mention USAirways, who is allowed to outsource airplanes already with up to 86 seats. Those airplanes have been in the air for many years already with Mesa. Sorry, but you can't paint this as some sort of new paradigm. Outsourcing airplanes the size of -900s has been going on for quite some time. DALPA's TA is just putting better restrictions on it.

 

[PCL_128]

Why you don't get that mainline pilots ought to fly them is beyond me.

What everyone thinks "ought" to happen and what is capable of being achieved through collective bargaining are two very different things. You seem to have great difficulty in understanding that concept. I'm glad that you aren't on the SWAPA NC.

You don't get what you deserve, you get what you can negotiate.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Seriously?

everybody needs to ignore that whining crybaby Wave and now that he bought a job, he can troll around all things Delta and right the wrongs in his eyes.

Just ignore him......he'll go away eventually. Im all stocked up with stupidity and blocking him months ago helped....

 

[waveflyer]

You're looking at aircraft type, rather than size, which really isn't relevant. United outsources large numbers of EMB-175s, which can seat up to 88 passengers. They just have them configured with fewer seats by installing first class, which is exactly what Delta does with the -900s in order to comply with DALPA's scope language. You also mention USAirways, who is allowed to outsource airplanes already with up to 86 seats. Those airplanes have been in the air for many years already with Mesa. Sorry, but you can't paint this as some sort of new paradigm. Outsourcing airplanes the size of -900s has been going on for quite some time. DALPA's TA is just putting better restrictions on it.

No, that isn't true. Get the facts.

Republic flies a lot of 170's for united and I believe is limited to 66 seats- so there is a healthy first class in those.

Republic does fly 38 175's for usair- again, only achieved during bk-+ Mesa flies 38 -900's. That's 76 total airframes that size flying in their network.

Delta IS asking for almost as many NEW -900's as the only other carrier that operates that size has total.

And this will be the FIRST time a -900 sized airframe will be outsourced while not under duress. It sets a strong legal precedent the rest of the industry will have a hard time overcoming.

 

[Scoot 11]

Wave.....Tourettes.....Must.....Take.....medicine......Now.....******************** YOU!!!!!!:laugh:

 

[Scoot 11]

No, that isn't true. Get the facts.

Republic flies a lot of 170's for united and I believe is limited to 66 seats- so there is a healthy first class in those.

Republic does fly 38 175's for usair- again, only achieved during bk-+ Mesa flies 38 -900's. That's 76 total airframes that size flying in their network.

Delta IS asking for almost as many NEW -900's as the only other carrier that operates that size has total.

And this will be the FIRST time a -900 sized airframe will be outsourced while not under duress. It sets a strong legal precedent the rest of the industry will have a hard time overcoming.

Wave. Was it ok when you took that rj job knowing that job was outsourced? Was it ok when you took that SW job knowing that you're lowering the bar by paying for training? Why is it that NO OTHER AIRLINE CHARGES THEIR EMPLOYEES TO WORK THERE?

 

[waveflyer]

Yes, it was ok. Yes, it was ok. Those were my choices. Voting to sellout out other pilots who now have to make their way in a whipsaw market or quit the industry they're invested in? Not ok.

DALPA- this TA will truly be a changing of the guard in our industry. Pass this and there's no more chest puffing. No more Swa did this way back.
It's Swa is holding up the industry while DALPA sells it out.
A total role reversal from 15 years ago.

Hope you're ready for that.

Hey scooter- do you refute anything I said in my posts? Are my facts incorrect? Or are facts a bit inconvenient for you?

You guys are good with outsourcing firsts- first to let a jet off the property, the only big three to outsource 76 seats, and now the only carrier to do so out of BK.

Good work sellouts

 

[PCL_128]

It's Swa is holding up the industry while DALPA sells it out.

Wow, you really are delusional.

 

[waveflyer]

Wow, so are you.
Refute it then. Outsourcing has been bad for EVERY pilot. Delta is the undisputed leader in outsourcing after this TA. Do you disagree?
Make an argument.

 

[PCL_128]

Of course I disagree. And I've already made my argument. Again, you just refuse to listen. This TA is a step in the right direction. It's not more outsourcing, it's less. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

[waveflyer]

They certainly do and since you have no vote, I won't bother with you anymore-

The numbers are this: 255 fuel efficient, large RJs (70 & 76 seaters) currently allowed, vs 325 after this TA.
The FIRST carrier to allow outsourced -900's while NOT under duress of bk. = legal precedent.
The only big 3 network carrier to allow it at all- at a time when the other two are fighting to keep scope at 70 seats and lower.
The increase in -900's is almost equal ( 70 vs 76) to usair's entire fleet of -900's & 175's.

So dalpa, do what you think is best. But don't EVER tell another soul that if you had a do-over, you'd have never let a jet be outsourced in the first place. Pass this, and that's a flat out lie. revisionist history.

Pass this and you're exactly what we thought you were. Sellouts. All mgmt has to do is muddy the waters a bit, throw some money at you and you'll keep on boiling the scope frog.

 

[KarmaPolice]

They certainly do and since you have no vote, I won't bother with you anymore-

The numbers are this: 255 fuel efficient, large RJs (70 & 76 seaters) currently allowed, vs 325 after this TA.
The FIRST carrier to allow outsourced -900's while NOT under duress of bk. = legal precedent.
The only big 3 network carrier to allow it at all- at a time when the other two are fighting to keep scope at 70 seats and lower.
The increase in -900's is almost equal ( 70 vs 76) to usair's entire fleet of -900's & 175's.

So dalpa, do what you think is best. But don't EVER tell another soul that if you had a do-over, you'd have never let a jet be outsourced in the first place. Pass this, and that's a flat out lie. revisionist history.



Pass this and you're exactly what we thought you were. Sellouts. All mgmt has to do is muddy the waters a bit, throw some money at you and you'll keep on boiling the scope frog.

Yes voters don't care. They really don't. They are selling out, but they will never admit it to you in that way. The brilliant TA lets them take credit for the 50 seater's demise after all! They are scope champions and the horse is headed back into the barn!! (where is that barf icon?) All I can say is, "Buy Delta stock". We have some smart guys running the show.

Wave, it's unrealistic that we could negotiate to have mainline flying new 900s! It's just not something an arbitrator would side with us on, and management is never going to accept that competitive disadvantage otherwise.

However, this was our chance to plant our feet at 255. We have the leverage to force management to find a more mainline oriented solution to the 50 seat economic problem than 88 717s and 70 more 900s, (with block hour ratios with gigantic loophole clauses). It's too bad we couldn't!! Had we rose the tide, no doubt all other ships would've benefitted. But we are hardly the first group to fail.

It is a sellout, but how bad is the sellout when compared to people who paid for their own type rating for a job, flew at a carrier with significantly inferior pay, benefits and retirement, or flew at a regional airline, directly undercutting their mainline? Are C2012 TA yes voters the first, or even worst sellouts ever? Hardly.

We all want other people to make the sacrifices that better the profession as a whole. In reality, we'd ALL probably always do what benefitted ourselves the most in any situation when it comes to flying jobs. (i.e. SELLING OUT). I never had to fly at a regional, but I probably would've if I had had to. I would've flown at SWA back when they were killing legacies with their lack of pensions and type rating requirement if it was my only available option.

I voted no on this TA, not because I think I'm making a stand for the pilot profession as a whole. (Although it's tempting to act like that, and it is a secondary benefit). I voted no because I believe 70 more 900s at DCI could have a greater negative impact on my bank account and lifestyle in the long run than living under the current contract might.

These guys see it differently, and don't see more 900s at DCI being all that great of a threat to them because of where they sit.

We can win the argument with them when we can prove to them they will be worse off under this TA.

Unfortunately, when that happens, it will be too late!!!

Anyway, Cheers!

 

[waveflyer]

I voted no on this TA, not because I think I'm making a stand for the pilot profession as a whole. (Although it's tempting to act like that, and it is a secondary benefit). I voted no because I believe 70 more 900s at DCI could have a greater negative impact on my bank account and lifestyle in the long run than living under the current contract might.

These guys see it differently, and don't see more 900s at DCI being all that great of a threat to them because of where they sit.

Well said, And here's the best argument for that- regionals are whipsawed, one group gets too much and they are rolled back while the next is built up- (ie:Comair after the strike--> skywest and republic built up)
So no regional will get too great a contract-

Now look at FO pay across the industry- its designed to attract applicants away from capt seats at regionals- please compare the two and tell me that regional pay doesn't drag down all of us. Not to mention, rj's are expensive and pretty bad customer experience. How many domestic customers have been lost to swa, jetblue, VA, air tran, while mgmt has been on this RJ kick?

Please do it for your own self interest. 70 more -900's is an enormous step in the wrong direction for outsourcing.

 

[Full of LUV]

Now look at FO pay across the industry- its designed to attract applicants away from capt seats at regionals- please compare the two and tell me that regional pay doesn't drag down all of us. Not to mention, rj's are expensive and pretty bad customer experience. How many domestic customers have been lost to swa, jetblue, VA, air tran, while mgmt has been on this RJ kick?

Wave,
You can make good points without going to the extreme. You are right that by having a regional industry, vice RJ's on the mainline ticket, you get a one time "reset" on longevity in your employee costs which is not to be underestimated. Now if mgmt could just figure out how to get baggage handlers and MX to want to "go to mainline" with the pilots and FA's, they'd have it made.