Delta Upgrade

[ACL65PILOT]

Go through 1113C and have none of the high cards. See how you respond. In DAL's case they knew that they had to take the devil they knew vs the possibility of the BK judge voiding their contract and the company imposing the terms of a new contract.

I hate it too, but remember where this happened. It was not to get more money!

 

[waveflyer]

You should have walked out before selling out yet again. But that's what Boomers are- sell outs. You got opportunities at major airlines flying small jets. Our generation has to interview w/ a regional. Build time there in small jets- just to interview and start all over again. Another step to get furloughed in. Pilot group gets too strong- they'll just transfer flying. Outsourcing is a strikable idea. To go down that road is bad- to continue down it with jets that large and say you weren't in control is cowardly. Take responsibility.

By your logic, the only reason ASA isn't flying the MD's and 737's around is out of the goodness of management's heart? Or did they know you wouldn't stand for that- but you'd let scope slip just a little bit more--- it's only 6 more seats....

 

[pipe]

Hi!

If someone really wants to be hired now and upgrade to big jet captain soon, I would recommend Emirates, Etihad and flydubai.

cliff
GRB

Hey there guys OPPORTUNITY OPPORTUNITY!!!

If someone wants to be a a third class citizen, viewed as a dog, and live with all of your comings and goings monitored and controlled, I would recommend the Middle East! But you'll get to fly a big shiny jet!!! Well worth it!

There hasn't been an airplane or a spacecraft built yet that would justify lifting a finger for anyone in that part of the world.

PIPE

 

[EMBpilot]

nothing like being age 55-59 years old and on reserve in crash pad in JFK on crap aircraft, but you are Captain.

What is the purpose of this post? If it sounds not pleasant to you - just don't do it. Accept those who do. Crappy airplane or not.

To each his own. That's why America is great.

I am, for example, not flying for a living. I do it for fun and Delta is the only company where it is possible. Is that OK with you?

I would add that there is no crappy airplanes. There are crappy pay rates that make people work a lot and get burned out.

 

[General Lee]

True enough.

On the flipside- STOP GIVING FLYING AWAY TO THESE OPERATIONS WHEN YOU KNOW THEY'LL NEVER HAVE THE LEVERAGE TO ADEQUATELY IMPROVE THEIR SITUATION!

for all the talk- i don't know if i'll ever forgive delta pilots for outsourcing 76 seat jets after everything we've gone through... at least they're joining with the other can't-learn-a-lesson airline- NWA/Compass.

Screw the next generation, right General?- you got yours...

I have gotten mine, and it is great. I think you over estimate the power we had during the BK process. If a BK judge is in the room while you negotiate with the company, you will lose, no doubt about it. Let's hope you NEVER have to go through that yourself.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

I have gotten mine, and it is great. I think you over estimate the power we had during the BK process. If a BK judge is in the room while you negotiate with the company, you will lose, no doubt about it. Let's hope you NEVER have to go through that yourself.


Bye Bye--General Lee

yeah- and i got mine too- i'm just not short sighted enough to think it wouldn't be a LOT better for everyone if those pilots were on our list.

You're not in BK now= what's the plan for getting that flying back on your list?

Didn't Continental go through BK- no 76 seat jets there? Didn't UAL? They're capped at 66. It's an excuse General. To release scope further as late as 2005-2006 is inexcusable- Means you've learned nothing- only protecting yourself- and management will use that against you.

 

[General Lee]

yeah- and i got mine too- i'm just not short sighted enough to think it wouldn't be a LOT better for everyone if those pilots were on our list.

You're not in BK now= what's the plan for getting that flying back on your list?

Didn't Continental go through BK- no 76 seat jets there? Didn't UAL? They're capped at 66. It's an excuse General. To release scope further as late as 2005-2006 is inexcusable- Means you've learned nothing- only protecting yourself- and management will use that against you.

You are starting to get testy, and annoying. When CAL went through BK, there were NO RJs. UAL lost a lot more than we did in total, and they aren't in the best of shape now. Trying to get 76 seats back to 70 seats may be tough, but we still have a flow down and flow up with Compass and Mesaba, and we will see where it goes from there. Also, you OBVIOUSLY know Jack about BK. Guess what hero? We had very little choice to do ANYTHING with the RJs, and the NWA MEC allowed 76 seaters before we did with Compass. Maybe there was a master plan to eventually merge the two of us, and maybe that is why we also went with that specific number. Something that you probably do not know is that if people hired before Sep 1st of 01 are furloughed, then DL has to get rid of 6 seats in EVERY 76 seat RJ. What is so great about that? Since the seniority list integration threw people from NWA in with DL people, many NWA pilots hired before that date were mixed in with people from DL who were not, meaning almost 12,000 of the 12,400 pilots are protected by that specific agreement in the contract. But, you already knew that. Guess what, I would support a staple of DCI on our list. That would be fantastic. You start a petition and I will sign it.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FBN0223]

Quite simply, during BK, by law priorities will never be given to scope restrictions but instead to the creditors. This is the law.

The fact that DL/NW ALPA finished the BK process with ANY contractual protections at all regarding scope is impressive.

 

[waveflyer]

Let's start the movement Gen- It needs to happen.
It's not personal btw- and i've been more than testy about it for a lot longer than this thread.
Believe me- annoying you does not bug me- what i want is for a clear majority of mainline pilots to finally GET how damaging scope is to their careers. Besides, you started it by getting on the regional pilot for how crappy his work conditions were- you should know they don't have the leverage to change much. And if you don't- what planet have you been on?

 

[General Lee]

Let's start the movement Gen- It needs to happen.
It's not personal btw- and i've been more than testy about it for a lot longer than this thread.
Believe me- annoying you does not bug me- what i want is for a clear majority of mainline pilots to finally GET how damaging scope is to their careers. Besides, you started it by getting on the regional pilot for how crappy his work conditions were- you should know they don't have the leverage to change much. And if you don't- what planet have you been on?

I was flying at a "commuter" (what regionals were before they had RJs that could leave the vacinity of the hub) in the early 90s, and conditions were a lot worse than what you have currently. The main problem is that "the RJ" grew too fast in the late 90s, and many of you expect them to continue to stick around, when their prime is gone. I do think we should place the DCI people at the bottom of the mainline list though, which would make us stronger as a group, but I don't know if management would be too keen on that idea. We aren't in section 6 contract negotiations for awhile, so who knows when it will happen. Maybe some day.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[captain caveman]

Brankrupcy judge in the room or not, it was not just up the judge, but also the creditors. It seems that we are challenged in the art of negotiating. We gave everything we were asked to give. We went into SLI negotiations with a reasonaable outcome as our negotiationing start point. One thing I have to look forward to as a very junior Delta pilot is our masive leverage if we use it right. I have respect for the NWA pilots for starting at date of hire, and their influence on our group. We could have settled on a half billion instead of a billion a year as a cut. Lets see what we can do.

 

[Wesb737fo]

On crap aircraft? Which airline are you talking about. You may want to save the criticism for your own airline in ATL.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I think he meant the md-80 at DAL.

 

[FDJ2]

You should have walked out before selling out yet again. ....

Can you name an airline labor group that had it's contract rejected under an 1113c and was allowed to "walk out?"

With a rejected contract, what are the scope limits? 76 seats?, 90?, 110?

 

[aewanabe]

I was flying at a "commuter" (what regionals were before they had RJs that could leave the vacinity of the hub) in the early 90s, and conditions were a lot worse than what you have currently. The main problem is that "the RJ" grew too fast in the late 90s, and many of you expect them to continue to stick around, when their prime is gone. I do think we should place the DCI people at the bottom of the mainline list though, which would make us stronger as a group, but I don't know if management would be too keen on that idea. We aren't in section 6 contract negotiations for awhile, so who knows when it will happen. Maybe some day.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, the conditions in the "Commuters" certainly sucked in the early 90s, but when you were flying your E120 around for 20K a year at least you HAD that 727 plumber's seat, 732, DC9-10, F28, F100 etc etc etc seat to look forward to. Every single one of those former mainline seats is now a CRJ-2/7/9 or E135/145 E170/175, flown at the regionals. So how are you going to keep blaming new guys for flying these airframes for crummy payrates? What the hell are they supposed to fly? Who allowed them to be defined as Regional aircraft simply because they weren't built by Boeing, Douglas, or Airbus? (Hint: this horse left the barn courtesy of DALPA in the early 90s, way before 9/11 and the 1113c bs).

 

[General Lee]

General, the conditions in the "Commuters" certainly sucked in the early 90s, but when you were flying your E120 around for 20K a year at least you HAD that 727 plumber's seat, 732, DC9-10, F28, F100 etc etc etc seat to look forward to. Every single one of those former mainline seats is now a CRJ-2/7/9 or E135/145 E170/175, flown at the regionals. So how are you going to keep blaming new guys for flying these airframes for crummy payrates? What the hell are they supposed to fly? Who allowed them to be defined as Regional aircraft simply because they weren't built by Boeing, Douglas, or Airbus? (Hint: this horse left the barn courtesy of DALPA in the early 90s, way before 9/11 and the 1113c bs).

You are correct that Dalpa was shortsighted in the LATE 90s, when scope was relaxed for potential growth opportunites. As things got worse after 9-11, some of that was tightened, and with BK it was tough not to let some of that slip again (70 to 76 seats). I think it could have been even worse, but we got through it and I think it won't get even worse unless a huge catastrophe. You can't underestimate the power of 9-11 and then a BK. Those weren't our best years at all. We did let the horse out of the barn early, but he is now restrained and could be heading for the meat grinder....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

We did let the horse out of the barn early, but he is now restrained and could be heading for the meat grinder....

Way to draw a line in the sand. There is nothing left for management to take. You already gave it all away.

 

[aewanabe]

General: I'm less concerned about the give-backs that happened post 9/11 and BK; I think you guys held out as well as you could then.

I have a far bigger axe to grind with the guys who let CRJ-200s and EMB 145s off the property in the early nineties; ultimately I think the 70-76 seaters just finished destroying what the 50-seaters started. I vividly remember flying lots of routes in the E145 that had been flown with F100s and 732s, well before E170s and CRJ-7s were even certified. The Saabs and Brazilias weren't really capable of replacing old narrow-body routes but the 50-seaters sure as heck did.

I just think it's short-sighted ultimately to blame young guys flying around RJs when there really aren't any turbo-prop jobs for them to wait for a narrow-body seat to open up. (Mesaba and now possibly, with ALPA's help, Colgan excepted). Had ALPA been smarter in the EARLY nineties then these right-seat jobs in E175s and CRJ-9s could be mainline jobs like the older jets they replaced.

At any rate here's to hoping the horse will be herded towards the glue factory in 2009.

 

[waveflyer]

Just going to keep finding threads where you blamed outsourcing -900's in Bankruptcy- no way would delta ever relax scope if it weren't for BK(!).....?????

Right?

You are starting to get testy, and annoying. When CAL went through BK, there were NO RJs. UAL lost a lot more than we did in total, and they aren't in the best of shape now. Trying to get 76 seats back to 70 seats may be tough, but we still have a flow down and flow up with Compass and Mesaba, and we will see where it goes from there. Also, you OBVIOUSLY know Jack about BK. Guess what hero? We had very little choice to do ANYTHING with the RJs, and the NWA MEC allowed 76 seaters before we did with Compass. Maybe there was a master plan to eventually merge the two of us, and maybe that is why we also went with that specific number. Something that you probably do not know is that if people hired before Sep 1st of 01 are furloughed, then DL has to get rid of 6 seats in EVERY 76 seat RJ. What is so great about that? Since the seniority list integration threw people from NWA in with DL people, many NWA pilots hired before that date were mixed in with people from DL who were not, meaning almost 12,000 of the 12,400 pilots are protected by that specific agreement in the contract. But, you already knew that. Guess what, I would support a staple of DCI on our list. That would be fantastic. You start a petition and I will sign it.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[HelloNewman]

Dang wave what is with your fetish? You are simply unrealistic and quite frankly are strangely obsessed with the workings of another airline. So you have no RJs, good for you guys. Mistakes were made and then the bankruptcy forced 70 seat planes on the majors. The cost is too great too put that genie back in the bottle so the only answer is to reduce overall flying but allow a few more larger RJs. They are better for business as no one likes flying in those POS 50 seaters. Fixing the scope issue doesn't happen overnight. The way Delta is doing it is a great start and should be followed over here at UAL/CAL.

 

[jayme]

The cost is too great too put that genie back in the bottle so the only answer is to reduce overall flying but allow a few more larger RJs.

You are a selfish prick.

Please go kill yourself.