Delta to use cash to outlast competitors

[FlyDeltasJets]

ya I thinks its 4.4 billion dollars. More than Usair and United. But, hey just raise those fares and everything will be just fine. We should have thought of this months ago.

Mad,

If the stock market recovers, that number will shrink drastically. If it doesn't, we have other things to worry about than just our pensions.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FLYDELTAJET your socialist views are old. Germany and France think that way. Either you change or you die.

Thanks for the help Mad,

I will take it under advisement.


P.S.

You're overpaid.

 

[mad691]

Mad,

If the stock market recovers, that number will shrink drastically. If it doesn't, we have other things to worry about than just our pensions.


I think your right on that one!!

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: Re: Re: Uh Huh!

Weren't you talking on another thread about aai getting larger airplanes. How long do you suggest we wait until we address your threat? You are trying to take over.

Easy there, Chief. Loosen up that double-breasted jacket . . . . we are talking about 50 737 or A319 aircraft . . . not widebodies, for cryin' out loud. We are hardly trying to "take over" anything.

You are desperately adding capacity to an idustry that has too much. You are growing every month while establised carriers shrink.

We're not "desperately" doing anything, we're making money by flying people at a ticket price above our cost. . . . it seems to be DAL that is dumping seats in markets we both serve, in an attempt to steal marketshare, and doing it a loss!

If you aren't trying to take over, then you should replace your ceo, because I sure hope that mine is trying to rule the world!

Again, there's that dinosaur dung again. We're not trying to take over the world- that's your business plan, not ours. That's also why you're losing money, and we're making money.

Unfortunately, it looks like his hands are full trying to compete with airlines who don't pay their people enough.

I guess we have similar problems then, because we're trying to compete against companies that dump seats in the marketplace at a loss.

And, since you decided to get judgemental with me- here's right back at ya, Pal. Maybe you ought to re-direct your anger at your company, not mine, because if your company abandoned their current "marketshare-at-all-costs" philosophy, you'd have your guys back at work.

Which brings me to another point- you've got a lot of **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** gall to point your finger at us "working for less" while your senior guys are making $250K plus while the junior guys are at Home Depot, loading their Escalades full of gardening supplies.

You have yourself a nice one, OK?

 

[mad691]

Senior guys always screw the junior guys. If I was making 250,00.00 a year I would have all those junior guys at Home Depot too.

 

[mad691]

[
Unfortunately, it looks like his hands are full trying to compete with airlines who don't pay their people enough.

There are the socialist views again. Are you French?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Mad,

I have allowed all sorts of insults to be directed towards me on this board, but if you call me french again, I will have to take drastic actions. There are some things that no one should have to endure, and I would suggest that you be very careful about whom you insult with a terrible label like "french." I can only be pushed so far.


Ty,

I have seen the error of our ways. I will therefore support all of your ideas. All of our pilots should immediately give back as much pay as necessary to undercut your prices, and on markets that we cannot undercut yours, we should cease operations. Your proposal that abandoning market share would put us back to work makes perfect sense. I don't know why no one thought of it sooner. Oh yeah, someone did. USair at BWI.

I would appreciate it if, rather than finding insult in my posts, you could address the points I made in my first response to you.

 

[General Lee]

Spinup,

Let's not talk about Leo Mullin either, that is on the CEO board!!!DUH! The other 50,000 non-union employees (Flt Attendants--18,000, Mechanics---10,000 etc) don't have to take any cuts?? What? Only the pilots will "save" this company, right? Also, the pension problem is definitely that, but our CFO (who should know something about money, right? More than you...) says we are complying with the minimum amount due. GM and Ford also have the same problem, and I guess they are going down in flames too, right? Wrong. We have enough money to cover the minimum amount due, and Delta execs haven't made it a big deal. A lot of that has to do with the price of our stock currently. When the stock goes back up after the War is over, a lot of that problem will vanish. The key thing here is that Delta is not full of unions, like AA and UAL, and that means that we are more flexible. The other employee groups could be given a pay cut and could do NOTHING about it. The management still has the ability to trim costs a lot, at the touch of a button. You see where I am coming from yet? Leo has the ability to cut costs at will. And another thing, we don't have to give them anything---at all. Leo and the CFO both agreed to that---it's called a contract. We are not on the brink of bankruptcy---and the management is managing the money well. Why would the CFO state that we were interested in the UAL Asain routes or LHR routes if we were on the brink? I know that we are in tough times, and I am sure that we will give in to some pay cuts and or productivity changes. But, when all of this is over, Delta will still be around and many others might not be.

Boeingman,

I knew that you guys owned Air Mike, but did not know about the Chelsea deal. I had read about the spare parts loan, and that you had only $350million worth of stock left in Expressjet. I am sorry about mixing that up, and I am glad that you have some extra cash reserves available through this rough time. We are code share partners, and for that I am glad.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[spinup]

General Lee,

Your theories are flawed as to what effect the industry will have on DALPA's CBA, and from my perspective you are not willing to accept statements from industry leaders. Your naiveté leads me to believe your are new to the airline biz, or have just refused assimilate all available information.

You continue to drift with comments regarding other employee groups, their concessions will NOT save your CBA. Yes! They too will take cuts. I never said they wouldn't. But if you think for one minute that Management can just pull the plug on their compensation package, union or not, you are sorely mistaken. Try that and you will see the quickest unionization of an employee group ever, or mass exodus. DAL management still has to work within boundaries.

If this is what you were fishing for, then here it is. OTHER EMPLOYEE GROUPS AT DAL WILL TAKE CUTS. Happy, I don't know what that accomplished but there it is. I never argued they wouldn't, nor does your management believe they cannot get concessions from them. Mullin knows this already but still makes comments concerning YOUR CBA. How can you not see this????? I don't understand your position. Your pilot group is most likely already preparing for this contingency. Do you attend LEC meetings? Have you actively tried to pursue their position?

We seem to be misconnecting. Here is my position in black and white. Your current CBA is going away, soon. Start looking for creative ways to keep the bar high. I can't offer more clarity than that.

As for the rest of your post, it was a drift and I'll let it keep drifting.

 

[rapidD]

Ty

Don't knock Peachtree City until you've tried it...great place to live. FlyDeltaJets, you are right on dude. I've been trying to carry that torch for years on this forum. Guys at the LCCs and regionals can't seem to grasp the concept that they have jobs because they are paid less than the rest of us. If the industry evolves to their standard of pay, we all suffer. It's simple supply and demand (and yes I have my degree in economics). If and when the economy picks up again, pay scales and ticket prices will rise. Until then, we are all captive to what the market bears. Right now, it bears what SWA and JB are charging and paying their pilots. It's not at all about hub-and-spoke. I guarantee you that when DAL gets the RPMS back up, thereby justifyng our pay scales, the guys and gals at SWA and JB will want their part of the pie. It's not necessarily customer service, its not DirectTV in the seat backs, its not peanuts, it the fare, stupid! This industry has proven time and time again: when the economy is up, the majors and business travelers rule the day; when the economy is in the lav, the cargo carriers and LCCs rule. US Air, UAL, AA and perhaps DAL will suck for awhile but most will survive in some form or fashion. Until that day, all of our livelihoods are constrained but the wages at the LCCs. When the "dinosaurs" rise out of the muck to live again, we will all benefit. Not just the guys at whatever's left of UAL, AA and DAL, but ALL of us. The JB guys and SWA guys will have leverage to negotiate. Until then, we're all sucking from the same trough...and it's getting low.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[HA25]

Ty

Don't knock Peachtree City until you've tried it...great place to live. FlyDeltaJets, you are right on dude. I've been trying to carry that torch for years on this forum. Guys at the LCCs and regionals can't seem to grasp the concept that they have jobs because they are paid less than the rest of us. If the industry evolves to their standard of pay, we all suffer. It's simple supply and demand (and yes I have my degree in economics). If and when the economy picks up again, pay scales and ticket prices will rise. Until then, we are all captive to what the market bears. Right now, it bears what SWA and JB are charging and paying their pilots. It's not at all about hub-and-spoke. I guarantee you that when DAL gets the RPMS back up, thereby justifyng our pay scales, the guys and gals at SWA and JB will want their part of the pie. It's not necessarily customer service, its not DirectTV in the seat backs, its not peanuts, it the fare, stupid! This industry has proven time and time again: when the economy is up, the majors and business travelers rule the day; when the economy is in the lav, the cargo carriers and LCCs rule. US Air, UAL, AA and perhaps DAL will suck for awhile but most will survive in some form or fashion. Until that day, all of our livelihoods are constrained but the wages at the LCCs. When the "dinosaurs" rise out of the muck to live again, we will all benefit. Not just the guys at whatever's left of UAL, AA and DAL, but ALL of us. The JB guys and SWA guys will have leverage to negotiate. Until then, we're all sucking from the same trough...and it's getting low.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Hear Hear!!!

 

[General Lee]

Spinup,

I am sure I know a lot more about this industry than you do. What you do not understand is that NO ONE can tell Dalpa what to do unless we go Chap 11, and that is VERY VERY unlikely---especially with our current performance compared to the other majors, our flexibility with one union, the amount of cash on hand, and the mortgagable assets we still have. The clock is not running out on us just yet, we have more time than anyone else except Southwest. Yes, we have pension problems, but we are covering the minimal amount necessary by law. Sure, there is a debt load from the money we have borrowed, but that is being paid off by that same cash and our fairly full airplanes. This is the slowest quarter, and the rest of the year WILL BE GRAVY. After this War thing is over, the economy will improve. We are among the very few who can go out there and expand. We are spending over $1 billion THIS YEAR ALONE on NEW RJ's---what does that tell you? Sounds like we are on the brink, doesn't it? What is your obsession here? I think you need to call our CFO and tell her your opinions. I am sure she would agree with you that we need pay cuts----any management person would. Our CBA cannot be changed unless WE do it---not them. Can you understand this now? We, not them. I understand that the non-union people would turn union if they were to get pay cuts---but we are not the only ones to take cuts, period. Can you explain why they are spending $1 billion extra dollars when we are supposedly losing so much? Why not pay off debt with the RJ money? I think you need to realize that "Arthur Anderson style accounting" goes on all of the time, in many industries. And I am not the only Delta pilot that feels this way. IF you were able to get onto the Dalpa Board, you would be able to see that. I am not blind to this downturn, and I would be foolish to say that we shouldn't give back something. I want this airline to continue providing me and everyone else with a good living. I know that there are problems out there that need to be addressed, and that is why I paid Alpa $3000 last year. They will
figure this out and do what is best. Their independant financial analysts will look over everything and give a fair analysis. I will let them advise me, not you. If we need to give, we will--no doubt. But, keep reading that Wall Steet Journal---it makes you sound professional.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[spinup]

General Lee,

You continue to list imaginative and extraneous content, which is nonexistent in my posting. You will not see the light until it is upon you. You argue me that your CBA is not under attack, yet, in subsequent rants agree that you will give what it takes to save DAL. I am done with this debate and with you, let time be the judge.

You sir, have no clue.


p.s.

I'm sure there is a lot of support on your DALPA board concerning the money being spent on RJ's.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman,

I knew that you guys owned Air Mike, but did not know about the Chelsea deal. I had read about the spare parts loan, and that you had only $350million worth of stock left in Expressjet. I am sorry about mixing that up, and I am glad that you have some extra cash reserves available through this rough time. We are code share partners, and for that I am glad.


Bye Bye---General Lee

No problem.

As far as the code share, I think once the bugs are ironed out, this 3 way alliance will be very formidable. If UAL and USAir fail (I believe they both will) ....what will AA do? There are going to be very few dance partners left soon.

The DAL/CAL system is a pretty good fit. I am also encouraged to be codesharing with 2 of the best in the industry.

 

[HA25]

I for one commend those at DALPA that are not talking about give backs.... why give back unless you have to. And if DAL is doing fine without them, then take the money boys, afterall you help earn it.

 

[Heavy Set]

Spinup,

I agree with General Lee. Delta is not in the same boat as UAL, USairways, American, etc. You are comparing apples to oranges. Delta has cash and a very strong mix of mainline, soon-to-be LCC, and commuters with a great yield-generation machine. It is is fairly good shape - relatively speaking. Is the industry hurting in general with the economy? Yes. Will the threat of war impact all airlines (fuel costs)? Yes. However, Delta is well-hedged - unlike most other airlines.

The point is that Delta is not doing too poorly. Contractually, Delta pilots don't have to talk - but they likely will give some back at some point. But they don't have to - management can't force talks, and Delta is not in "dire" straits like UAL and American.

What is your beef with General Lee? If you take the time to actually read what he has to say (behind all of his crassness), it makes pretty good sense. Last time I checked, the pilots union at most airlines have A LOT OF LEVERAGE - especially at an airline not teetering on the brink (it could teeter on the brink of disaster if the pilots slow down or strike...) Delta is not in the same shape as UAL or American - it has cash and plenty of cards to play - including a strong regional network with a good mix of airplanes and an LCC with 60 757s coming up.

Personally, your arguments don't make much sense (you don't back-up your arguments well with facts) - and you sound like an a$$... My 2 cents.

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm sure it is very nice . . . . for you. I prefer to be near the water, and where I live, you can live on a golf course or on the water for the price of a landlocked "McMansion" on a denuded lot in PTC. Defintiely not my style, but thanks, anyway. You guys enjoy.

Guys at the LCCs and regionals can't seem to grasp the concept that they have jobs because they are paid less than the rest of us.

You guys make your choices and we make ours. Keep on working for less money, or work at Home Depot for the next four or five years Hmmmnnn, not a tough one for me. I will have been hired, trained, upgraded, and a fifth year captain before some of your guys are even back from furlough. Would I be smarter to wear an orange apron for four or five years to "protect the profession"? Give me a break. if you buy that argument, it's your choice, not mine.

If anyone should "protect the profession" it is the guys at the top who are earning well over $250,000., not the poor slobs in their early 30's with two or three kids and are expected to be working at Home Depot?

If the industry evolves to their standard of pay, we all suffer. It's simple supply and demand

Your problems aren't of our making, sporto, they are a combination of over-capacity, a bloodlust for marketshare- mismanagement, a bloated operation, and many other factors, of which competition from us is only one factor.

Quit blaming us for your problems- because even if we went away tomorrow, you guys would still be losing money, period.

 

[General Lee]

Heavy Set,

Thanks man! Atleast someone understands what I am talking about. I know all airlines are hurting right now, and I am not above giving in to save my compnay. But, you can't give away the farm without looking at it from all sides. The independant analysts will look over everything and give their analysis, and then we will give what is necessary.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[HA25]

interesting with all the talk of overpaid pilots on this board these days that we come to find out the airline with the best cash position is the one that is paying their pilots the most.... and ironically the one with non-union FA's and Ramp/Gate personnel which totally validates all that I've been saying in my prior arguments with some of the pilot haters on this board over the past couple of years..

very interesting indeed.

 

[46Driver]

Or you could say that the airline in the best cash position is the one that has the most RJ's..... Could it be that their "best paid pilots" had the luck to have the last contract prior to Sept 11?

 

[NYRANGERS]

General Lee,

You continue to list imaginative and extraneous content, which is nonexistent in my posting. You will not see the light until it is upon you. You argue me that your CBA is not under attack, yet, in subsequent rants agree that you will give what it takes to save DAL. I am done with this debate and with you, let time be the judge.

You sir, have no clue.


p.s.

I'm sure there is a lot of support on your DALPA board concerning the money being spent on RJ's.

I must say I find it very odd that someone who has no place with Delta, can offer such emotional posts.

It seems the only level headed and non insulting posts on this subject, come from the pilots who actually work for a Delta owned company or Delta itself.

It must be penis envy

NYR



NYR1 NYI1, well its at least one point.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Ty,

Looks like airtran just announced service to LAX and LAS. I suppose you'll soon be accusing us of causing lower fares on those routes, too.

If you get a chance, I would be interested in a response to my earlier post. It included some points to rebut your theory that our "seat dumping" is the cause of lower fares. I would like to hear your thoughts.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Ty,

Looks like airtran just announced service to LAX and LAS. I suppose you'll soon be accusing us of causing lower fares on those routes, too.

If you get a chance, I would be interested in a response to my earlier post. It included some points to rebut your theory that our "seat dumping" is the cause of lower fares. I would like to hear your thoughts.

Not only are they announcing the flights but...........................................Ryanair will be flying the routes for them.


Airtran must be very proud. It looks like we may have to take the "proverbial" %37 pay cut. Unless we can get Hooters Air to fly the same route for us.

Way to hold the line boys?????

 

[Ty Webb]

No, what'll happen is that we'll initially bring the price down, then DAL will probably add two more flights a day, and sell the additional seats at our price, too. That'll guarantee the prices stay low, and it will be true to form.

You keep asking me to document what I've said above. Well, here we'll both be able to see and confirm what I've been saying first-hand.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sorry, but we're just not that big and important. If you guys give up pay, it'll be because of the competition from UAL and USAirways. Their problems had nothing to do with AirTran, and everything to do with bad management, waste, sloth and greed.

 

[NYRANGERS]

No, what'll happen is that we'll initially bring the price down, then DAL will probably add two more flights a day, and sell the additional seats at our price, too. That'll guarantee the prices stay low, and it will be true to form.

You keep asking me to document what I've said above. Well, here we'll both be able to see and confirm what I've been saying first-hand.

Hey Ty,

I mean no malice, but in reality you guys won't be operating this flight. It's like a code share. Ryanair will be competing with our product( on your behalf) to LAX and Jetblue's product to LGB.

I wish us all luck.........mostly just us.

 

[Ty Webb]

Originally posted by NYRANGERS
Hey Ty,

I in reality you guys won't be operating this flight. It's like a code share. Ryanair will be competing with our product( on your behalf) to LAX and Jetblue's product to LGB.

It's not a code share . . . it's sub-service until our new planes show up in 2004. I haven't seen the terms of the agreement, but you can bet it's our nickel, just like when you guys have Skywest doing PNS-ATL.

I haven't seen any press releases on it yet . . . . but if they went with Ryan, I would guess that means we're going with the Airbus for our 2004 orders, instead of Boeing.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Originally posted by NYRANGERS
That, and the senior guys expecting you to wear the orange apron in exchange for a few bucks towards your health insurance and some vagaries about "protecting the profession".

We all make our choices. Don'tt blame AirTran for yours.

Not sure what you mean by the "senior guys expecting me to wear the orange apron". I will say that they pay my COBRA premium (along with a number that must be close to your whole pilot group) and I have benefited from the furloughed pilots fund. I am sure you will not find a more supportive group of pilots in the industry then the Delta pilots.

Hell, even Delta let us keep our travel benefits.

One more thing........In a time of overcapacity I find it hard to understand your suggestion of us not competing with your continuous expansion.

NYR

PS. The way things are going......I'll save you a place in the food stamp line.

 

[46Driver]

Who is Ryan Air and what is going on??? The only Ryan Air I know of is based out of London???

 

[NYRANGERS]

Originally posted by NYRANGERS

I haven't seen any press releases on it yet . . . . but if they went with Ryan, I would guess that means we're going with the Airbus for our 2004 orders, instead of Boeing.

Great, another "victory" for the French.

Well at least the Rangers went a point up on the Bruins.

Goodnight all,

NYR