Delta talks with pilots 'intense'

[FDJ2]

You probably did see it there, so think about it before your MEC negotiates any protocol that violates or would require the abrogation of the Comair PWA!

As you have noted Surplus, the DMEC can not abrogate the CMR PWA, so don't worry about it, it can't be done without the consent of the CMR MEC. I suspect you have membership ratification, so even if the CMR MEC went along with a J4J deal, if the CMR MEC thinks it substantially affects the retirement, pay or job security of the CMR pilots any changes to your PWA would be subject to membership ratification. So relax, you won't get a J4J deal unless you agree to it.

 

[Vortilon]

Once again, neither DAL nor DALPA have proposed a J4J deal. Its just more emotional "were gonna get screwed" flamebait from our esteemed flightinfo pals.

Now everyone, please step away from the computer and count to 10....

 

[General Lee]

From what I have been hearing, there is talk going on about 100 seat scope. But, Dalpa is trying to resolve it soon and talks are ongoing. I think it will be another "Delta Express" type deal, where the union bids low for the pay rates on those planes to keep our guys flying them. I bet it will be a little higher than MDA's rates, and there will be a limit to the number of them---maybe 100 or so. But, I don't really know since I am not a negotiator---but that is what I have been hearing. The pay cuts, though, are probably already on the table---in the 30% or a little bit higher range. NW's 15% pay cut (from their TA) brings the A320 Capt to the exact same spot where a DL 737-800 Capt would be with a 30% pay cut. That's just a guess, though. We'll see......But I don't think Dalpa will give up on 100 seaters---just bid low for them. I do see DCI getting more CR7s also.


I talked to an ASA pilot yesterday and he said they have been told they will get EMB-190s if we go Chap 11.(for the 100 seater) But, I was told by a DL line check pilot that Kolshack likes the 736 or the 737-700. Who knows?


Also, did you know that Delta has between $7.5--9.0 BILLION worth of debt on 372 RJs? I just saw that on another board and I think that is amazing....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

General,

I would really like to know WHO started the BS rumor of us getting the E-190's. The pilots are ALWAYS the last to know about any changes in the company's business. Look and the DFW debacle. Reading in today's "Al Jazeera Contemplation", the so-called analyst's were dimming the no Chap 11 lights even further. (Hang tight there). EVERYONE here on this forum has their own opinion one the situation - again, for the hard of reading -opinion. And we all know what that means. Another thread says SKW is going to buy ASA. Great. It is almost a laugh an hour as I read some of these. Only GG and friends have ANY idea of what the "plan" is going to be or hope to be. We can make up all sorts of 'this is what is going to happen at Delta, Comair or ASA' threads. Simple fact, NO ONE KNOWS. You, me, Surplus, FDJ2, Fins - all of us have zero knowlege of things going on in the big red building. They might just be kicking back with a few brew's and pizza's watching our three pilot groups ground themselves into putty berating each other and making all sorts of accusations against one another. The have to LOVE that fact. Pretty sad if you ask me. All I do is get in my plane and get the folks to their destinations as quickly and safely as possible. THEY are the ones paying my salary....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Once again, neither DAL nor DALPA have proposed a J4J deal. Its just more emotional "were gonna get screwed" flamebait from our esteemed flightinfo pals....

How much do you want to bet? ALPA's proposals are discoverable and will become public information through the Courts. When allowed, you will see them. "Brand Scope" is Jets for Jobs, just a more politically correct name since even ALPA National has the situational awareness to know J4J is about as popular as Frank Lorenzo at a meeting of senior Airtran Pilots.

General Lee : My very foggy crystal ball indicates you are probably right about a 100 seat aircraft and perhaps more CRJ700's at DCI. It also appears the Company may be resisting the J4J proposals because of concerns about pilots going straight to the CRJ Capt. slot and closing down the "portfolio" concept of alter ego carriers. I have heard nothing, and I mean nothing, about a 100 seat airplane being operated by current DCI pilots. Further, long term infastructure changes are designed aroung the CRJ700. Have you guys seen the rennovation plans for C concourse? The E170/190 just would not fit under the awning.

More CRJ700's would only help the Delta pilots. 82% of ASA's passengers board Delta's jets and Delta needs all the help they can get filling the MD88 and larger aircraft. The CRJ700 creates 40% more revenue for Delta on 20% greater costs than the CRJ200. We all need to do everything possible to see that Delta stays around.

The trick is going to be finding any financing for Delta's "growth." Delta feels they must grow to reduce costs. This is true, however, there is already too darn much capacity in the market.

What are you hearing about the jets for jobs negotiations?

 

[~~~^~~~]

NO ONE KNOWS. You, me, Surplus, FDJ2, Fins - all of us have zero knowlege of things going on in the big red building. ...

Skip Barnette has been candid about the things he can talk about and he said there would be a lot more to talk about in two weeks. ASA's management is communicating better than I've ever seen before and the message seems to be "If you hear Delta is bankrupt...come to work, do your job, focus on the task at hand." I think they may be concerned that the Indians are going to get restless since most of us have never personally been through this before.

 

[~~~^~~~]

So relax, you won't get a J4J deal unless you agree to it.

Tell the Pilots at PSA, Allegheny, or Piedmont that....

Since the union and our management is telling us to "wait until you see the numbers" maybe we should "wait until we see the numbers."

Obviously the alternative will be to watch the airplanes go to another carrier that agrees to the J4J protocol. I know that CHQ has talked about it. I imagine there are others and the first carrier that says "yes" will see new airplanes on the ramp. It is a tough position to be in, especially if the ATR's go away and ASA starts shrinking.

 

[General Lee]

Fins,


All I have heard was that the 100 seat scope was the last thing to be negotiated. I assume that the pay cuts were already decided on---in the 30-35% range. I believe the $1 billion a year the company wants---is what they will get. As far as J4J---I don't really know anything about that. There might not be a large need for that if we do lose 500-700 Captains due to the lump sum protection leaving Feb 1st. We have 803 guys out on furlough right now, and many of them have probably moved on. A company memo stated that mid next year we would have 6800 mainline pilots, and that would be after the 500-700 leave---and right now we have 7500 pilots (but 200-300 are on sick leave of absence).

As far as the 100 seater---I believe Kolshack likes the 737-600/700 and I can only see those going to mainline (we already have 738s and we have the sims), with more 70 seaters going to DCI---but I don't know if that would be with ASA/Comair or Skywest...... Skywest could probably afford more.



ATR-DRIVR,

The ASA guy I talked to said the new pilots were being told that at indoc. It sounded like they were told that in "pep rally" form.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Tell the Pilots at PSA, Allegheny, or Piedmont that....

Bottomline Fins, neither the PSA, Allegheny or Piedmont pilots were forced into J4J. Everyone made their choice, Not one PWA was violated by the mainline, so don't worry about your PWA, it won't be altered unilaterally. If your PWA is amended it will only be through the procedures adopted by your MEC.

 

[Rhoid]

I could be wrong, but it is my opinion that Comair pilots will not voluntarily relinguish any part of their contract in favor of Delta pilots. Attempts to force them to do so will result in a battle royal the likes of which ALPA has never seen.


I bet they would if a flow through agreement to mainline Delta was included in the deal. I know if I was at Comair or ASA, i'd love to flow up to Delta without having to go through the hassle of interviewing, I'd be voting a definate yes on that one!

 

[Pez D. Spencer]

There will be no flow through.

And you would probably lose that bet.

 

[dtfl]

?

Anyone know the particulars of the deal at CAL? I have a buddy in my Res Sq that flowed back into CAL Express. Haven't seen him lately to ask specifics.
Anyone?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Skywest has been used as an example of a "successful jets for jobs program." I'm not sure what that means.

UAL furloughs get 2nd year RJ pay regardless of airframe. No guaranteed left seats or anything like that. The furloughees bid what they can hold and seniority is not compromised in any way. They retain their number at UAL. I think the extra pay comes in the form of a separate check from UAL.

IMHO this is J4J done right.

 

[General Lee]

Dave,


Of course you would think that, you are at Skywest. If you were at United, you would think otherwise. Look at USAir and their J4J---with USAir furloughs getting Capt spots at Mesa, PSA, and MDA. Continental had flowbacks getting left seat at Coex. AA has flowbacks getting left seat at AA Eagle. You can bet Dalpa would try to get that too if they had to compromise---but it might not be at ASA/Comair---maybe another airline that would play ball and charge less overall than ASA/Comair. That would get very interesting! Who knows who will get the future lot of CR7s? Maybe some airline that low balls everyone else.........



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Vortilon]

Fins,

I'd happily bet you a six-pack of your favorite adult beverage. I'll happily take Bass or Fosters!

To be clear, in the final concessionary TA there will be no J4J. That's my bet!

 

[AutoTransfer]

If there is 70-seat scope relief, how many seats do you think the 25 ASA jets will have next year? I have an idea.

 

[General Lee]

Autotransfer,


I think you COULD BE absolutely correct. I think those 50 seaters will be turned into 70 seaters, MOST LIKELY.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

I bet they would if a flow through agreement to mainline Delta was included in the deal. I know if I was at Comair or ASA, i'd love to flow up to Delta without having to go through the hassle of interviewing, I'd be voting a definate yes on that one!

If you had any knowledge of the Comair pilot group or its history you would not make that bet.

Comair pilots have already proven that the seniors will not sacrifice the juniors for a promised number on another list nor will they allow themselves to become furlough fodder for anyone.

 

[Rhoid]

If you had any knowledge of the Comair pilot group or its history you would not make that bet.

Comair pilots have already proven that the seniors will not sacrifice the juniors for a promised number on another list nor will they allow themselves to become furlough fodder for anyone.

Then how come you guys got all giddy at the thought of merging by DOH with Delta a few years ago? I've heard stories that pilots were litterally jumping for joy in the crewroom when they heard that they were going to merge the lists and thought that it would be done by DOH? How high did you jump?

 

[surplus1]

Dave,

Of course you would think that, you are at Skywest. If you were at United, you would think otherwise. Look at USAir and their J4J---with USAir furloughs getting Capt spots at Mesa, PSA, and MDA. Continental had flowbacks getting left seat at Coex. AA has flowbacks getting left seat at AA Eagle. You can bet Dalpa would try to get that too if they had to compromise---but it might not be at ASA/Comair---maybe another airline that would play ball and charge less overall than ASA/Comair. That would get very interesting! Who knows who will get the future lot of CR7s? Maybe some airline that low balls everyone else.........
Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I don't doubt you will try but I think you're right. I doubt that Comair or ASA would play that kind of ball and ALPA won't get very far trying to coerce them. Even CHQ voted that down until they were coerced into doing it to stop the alter ego. They have since plugged the contractul hole and no longer have to do that. So, I guess you'll have to go to MESA or somebody else that will let you pull the wool over their eyes. Maybe Skywest would like that.