Delta talks with pilots 'intense'

[Pez D. Spencer]

There will be no flow through.

And you would probably lose that bet.

 

[dtfl]

?

Anyone know the particulars of the deal at CAL? I have a buddy in my Res Sq that flowed back into CAL Express. Haven't seen him lately to ask specifics.
Anyone?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Skywest has been used as an example of a "successful jets for jobs program." I'm not sure what that means.

UAL furloughs get 2nd year RJ pay regardless of airframe. No guaranteed left seats or anything like that. The furloughees bid what they can hold and seniority is not compromised in any way. They retain their number at UAL. I think the extra pay comes in the form of a separate check from UAL.

IMHO this is J4J done right.

 

[General Lee]

Dave,


Of course you would think that, you are at Skywest. If you were at United, you would think otherwise. Look at USAir and their J4J---with USAir furloughs getting Capt spots at Mesa, PSA, and MDA. Continental had flowbacks getting left seat at Coex. AA has flowbacks getting left seat at AA Eagle. You can bet Dalpa would try to get that too if they had to compromise---but it might not be at ASA/Comair---maybe another airline that would play ball and charge less overall than ASA/Comair. That would get very interesting! Who knows who will get the future lot of CR7s? Maybe some airline that low balls everyone else.........



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Vortilon]

Fins,

I'd happily bet you a six-pack of your favorite adult beverage. I'll happily take Bass or Fosters!

To be clear, in the final concessionary TA there will be no J4J. That's my bet!

 

[AutoTransfer]

If there is 70-seat scope relief, how many seats do you think the 25 ASA jets will have next year? I have an idea.

 

[General Lee]

Autotransfer,


I think you COULD BE absolutely correct. I think those 50 seaters will be turned into 70 seaters, MOST LIKELY.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[surplus1]

I bet they would if a flow through agreement to mainline Delta was included in the deal. I know if I was at Comair or ASA, i'd love to flow up to Delta without having to go through the hassle of interviewing, I'd be voting a definate yes on that one!

If you had any knowledge of the Comair pilot group or its history you would not make that bet.

Comair pilots have already proven that the seniors will not sacrifice the juniors for a promised number on another list nor will they allow themselves to become furlough fodder for anyone.

 

[Rhoid]

If you had any knowledge of the Comair pilot group or its history you would not make that bet.

Comair pilots have already proven that the seniors will not sacrifice the juniors for a promised number on another list nor will they allow themselves to become furlough fodder for anyone.

Then how come you guys got all giddy at the thought of merging by DOH with Delta a few years ago? I've heard stories that pilots were litterally jumping for joy in the crewroom when they heard that they were going to merge the lists and thought that it would be done by DOH? How high did you jump?

 

[surplus1]

Dave,

Of course you would think that, you are at Skywest. If you were at United, you would think otherwise. Look at USAir and their J4J---with USAir furloughs getting Capt spots at Mesa, PSA, and MDA. Continental had flowbacks getting left seat at Coex. AA has flowbacks getting left seat at AA Eagle. You can bet Dalpa would try to get that too if they had to compromise---but it might not be at ASA/Comair---maybe another airline that would play ball and charge less overall than ASA/Comair. That would get very interesting! Who knows who will get the future lot of CR7s? Maybe some airline that low balls everyone else.........
Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I don't doubt you will try but I think you're right. I doubt that Comair or ASA would play that kind of ball and ALPA won't get very far trying to coerce them. Even CHQ voted that down until they were coerced into doing it to stop the alter ego. They have since plugged the contractul hole and no longer have to do that. So, I guess you'll have to go to MESA or somebody else that will let you pull the wool over their eyes. Maybe Skywest would like that.

 

[bvt1151]

...You can bet Dalpa would try to get that too if they had to compromise---but it might not be at ASA/Comair---maybe another airline that would play ball and charge less overall than ASA/Comair. That would get very interesting! Who knows who will get the future lot of CR7s? Maybe some airline that low balls everyone else.........

So now DALPA is participating in the very whipsaw they are preaching against. What a great union, this ALPA.

 

[General Lee]

bvt1151,


I really have no idea if Dalpa would do that or not. That was just a guess.



Bye bye--General Lee

 

[N2264J]

Re: Delta talks with pilots 'intense

bvt1151, I really have no idea if Dalpa would do that or not. That was just a guess. Bye bye--General Lee

Let me enlighten you. Your MEC is trying as hard as they can. Only this time it won't be called Jets-for-Jobs which hit a public relations snag with the debacle at US Airways. It will be called "Brand Scope." The Delta MEC will bargain whatever scope they think we need and deserve and the quid is that the new airframes allowed by scope relief will be piloted by mainline furloughees. If Comair or ASA MECs don't like the terms and are reluctant to sign on, the DMEC will threaten take the "growth" elsewhere engaging in their own whipsaw against their favorite union "brothers." One of the more despicable examples of equal and fair representation by the union, wouldn't you say?

Don't be confused by the platitudes and promises from our own MEC when this gets sold to us like a used car. It's not growth if another pilot group is flying the planes.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

White men can't jump.

Then how come you guys got all giddy at the thought of merging by DOH with Delta a few years ago? I've heard stories that pilots were litterally jumping for joy in the crewroom when they heard that they were going to merge the lists and thought that it would be done by DOH? How high did you jump?

It's pretty obvious that you aren't a Comair or ASA pilot. That some pilots had cause to believe some sort of merge of the seniority lists along the lines of Delta's previous acquisitions of Northeast, Western and Pan American's assets seemed rather reasonable at the time. Date of hire? Never.

Can't recall anyone "jumping for joy" either -- ever.

That the resistance to coercion of the ASA/CMR MECs continues to confound FDJ2 and Gee Lee has provided some humorous moments though. Just how much more of the full court press they can withstand is in doubt.

 

[General Lee]

Flycomairjets,


It doesn't confound me. I think of it this way, the MEC will try to get whatever it thinks it can negotiate. Delta is looking for a lot while trying to stay out of Chap 11 (which may not help anyway now...)---and will negotiate also. Whatever happens---happens. There will be a lot of extra retirements soon because of the pension problems, and hopefully that will take care of some of the furlough problem. Believe it or not---I don't just sit here and say to myself "Darn those ASA/Comair MEC's!! Darn them!!!" I really DON'T.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Tim47SIP]

The Delta MEC will bargain whatever scope they think we need and deserve and the quid is that the new airframes allowed by scope relief will be piloted by mainline furloughees. If Comair or ASA MECs don't like the terms and are reluctant to sign on, the DMEC will threaten take the "growth" elsewhere engaging in their own whipsaw against their favorite union "brothers."

I completely agree, but I can't help but think that with all of the upcoming retirees on the DALPA side of the house, this whole problem may be much smaller than we think. Unless JG is really going to downsize mainline more than he is alluding to, then we are talking very small numbers. I seriously doubt that an alter ego subsidiary would even be a viable operation concerning the numbers of furloughees involve once the future retirees leave. I also dont see the furloughees going to Skywest or Chitaco. There just isn't enough profit margin to entice Delta management to build up these carriers temporarily untill the furloughs are all back. I also don't think that DALPA will want the 70's on their property as they will get annoyed with them very shortly and have to deal with that pesky "operational integration thing".

The real problem as I see it will be the placement of any new 90-120 seaters. Obviously, DALPA wants control of them, but management wont want them on the DALPA property for two reasons. 1) The cost structure would have to be entirely ASA/Comair campatabe, 401K, health ins, pay, maint, etc. 2) Management will never take a chance again to be put in the position that they were put in with Delta Express. Y2K integration of pay scales. The Gen is alluding to the fact that DALPA could agree to a Delta Express disparity in pay to get the 90-120 seaters on the Delta property. The only way Delta will agree to this is if it is a permanent subsidiary with no way to integrate in the future. Two seniority lists. Because of this I believe, is where we will see any type of J4J type of integration. Personally I would like to see any new 100+ seater on mainline, period. I just dont think DALPA will agree to our complete pay infrastructure on a permanent basis. Hope it works out well for everyone. That way all this will be fixed when I get back from my second recall in 2007. Good luck!

 

[General Lee]

Tim,


Good luck on your Military leave by the way. You're right about the potential for a lot of retirements. Any guy with a large lump sum sitting there has a chance to lose it if he doesn't retire, and that could lead to many retirements. Hopefully that will help out with any future furlough. As far as the 100 seaters, I think Dalpa will get the rates down to something Delta will like just to keep the flying over on our side. They did that before with Delta Express. Also, Grinstein said he "couldn't see DCI flying the 100 seaters" (as quoted from a SLC townhall meeting). Will that stand up? I don't know.

Also, I don't see two seperate lists for a mainline operation---we aren't doing that with Song. We should know something this week I am hoping.....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[InclusiveScope]

I completely agree, but I can't help but think that with all of the upcoming retirees on the DALPA side of the house, this whole problem may be much smaller than we think. Unless JG is really going to downsize mainline more than he is alluding to, then we are talking very small numbers. I seriously doubt that an alter ego subsidiary would even be a viable operation concerning the numbers of furloughees involve once the future retirees leave.

Tim,
Using the current Delta working rules you would be correct. However I suspect that one way or another, either before or after Ch11, you will see American/United/USAir style work rules at Delta. When you plug in the new work rules, you will have a large surplus of mainline pilots once again. There is a reason that United/American/USair furloughed more pilots than Delta - new work rules that are yet to arrive in DALPA land. One way or another, they will arrive!

 

[General Lee]

Inclusivescope,


It is weird, you almost seem giddy at the prospect. Nice. First of all, the other mainline carriers have NOT had the retirements so far this year like we have. We have had 600 so far this year---and Captains that retire have a ripple effect. Second, we will have even more retire due to the Feb 1st drop dead date on the lump sum pensions. As of Sep 1st, we had 1271 eligible to take their lump sums, and even half of that would be a large retirement. Thanks to our recent TA concerning retired pilots hanging around until their replacement is trained---no planes will be parked. Then, add on a 6% increase in flying as of Feburary 1st of next year. All of those combined are things that USAir/UAL/ AA etc DON'T have. None of them have had a retirement problem like we have had. That essentially furloughs pilots from the top. Our crew resources people have said that we could increase the cap from 75 hours to 83 hours and still have to recall, and that is before the next 500 Captains go. Also, it is thought that Dalpa has already negotiated most of the new concession package--and the work rules have already been worked on. The NYC LEC chairman elluded to the fact that we have worked with the company on them, and despite having a large pay cut, some quality of life issues have been retained---so I would take that as we have a cap increase---but not a large large one. Could that be changed in court? Probably. But in the recent SEC filing, even Delta stated that some things agreed upon with Dalpa might not be changed due to agreements made---even if we have to go to court. I don't know what those are, and neither do you.


Bye Bye--General Lee