Delta set to rumble

[FDJ2]

How about a good will of foregoing the raise in May until something is worked out? I'll get it for this one. Hey, we bought a 767 for the company once!

All for now, DLslug

"Good will" is soon forgotten, does anyone give us credit today for allowing the NWA/CAL code share agreement, an agreement which adds $250M-$300M to the bottomline. We already offered to forego the May pay raise +9% and some productivity phased in with an increase in fying. GG doesn't want it, he wants a PWA similar to one negotiated through the BK courts with no realistic threat of BK. He aint going to get it.

 

[CatYaaak]

That sounds like a joke.

How many DAL vice presidents does it take to set up an off-shore management retirement account?

A better question would be "How many VPs do you think a company the size of Delta needs?". If 58 is too many, how many does it take? 40? 25? 0? Do you have any idea whatsoever, or are you just figuring that the current amount must be "too many" cuz...you know....they're evil.

Sigh, if only they'd let pilots run the company all would be golden. Just ask us, we figure it all out sitting in our cockpits. Hey, why don't we start an airline and show those overpaid desk-jockeys how to do it. We can call it Kiwi......

 

[~~~^~~~]

That sounds like a joke.

How many DAL vice presidents does it take to set up an off-shore management retirement account?

Actually, do a little research on ALPA, Kitty Hawk and ULICO. Since the RJDC litigation (perhaps a coincidence, but no known direct link) ALPA has been shifting property overseas and this year is having a difficult time finding coverage, even at increased rates.

Further, the Delta pilots' retirements are vested. Why shouldn't management be similarly secured?

As the exodus of talented managers demonstrates, Leo was correct. As they find other jobs, Delta's managers are leaving. Now this is good news if you believe Delta was poorly managed. But, do you really think the "low cost" replacements will do as good a job?

 

[Newjetjockey]

Catyaak,

I'm obviously not the only one that thinks Delta has too many VPs. GG is about too ax some. Reread the article.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The huge lack of trust is making it hard to swallow the amount that GG wants. Tough to ask Delta pilots to pay the debt on 100's of CRJs.

I would think DCI pilots have a interest as well. A wise man once said...

furlough me once, shame on you.
furlough me twice, shame on me.

First, the RJ's pay for themselves and make a profit that supplements your "shortfall."

Second, DCI pilots, and most everyone but your seniority list buddies will do just as well without Delta. Some of us already make more from outside business interests. As you must admit it is not hard to make $50K a year. It is a lot more difficult to find a job paying your second year six figure income.

Third, where do you get off talking about a "lack of trust" when you begin your statement with a falsehood regarding the contribution of RJ's? Your MEC Communications guy, Mike Pinho, admitted that the Delta MEC had misrepresented to their pilots and the press Delta's financial situation. He said that when they misrepresented material facts that were simply, "reflecting the mood of their pilots."

Third, my father was furloughed six times before he retired from Fed Ex. Not once did he, or his MEC, use ALPA to try to take away flying from other carriers, not once did his MEC's kill a merger petition and not once do I recall him being anything but thankful when he was recalled. He did not feel like the Company owed him a living, he was just happy to be back in the cockpit and not running a gas station.

I do wish you and TK the best and hope you get recalled soon. It does really stink to be furloughed, I've been there. However, you junior guys need to wake up and get some control of the folks who represent you. After all, had it not been for your MEC, I would be your co-pilot on the -700 and we would both be talking about how much more money we make than those US Air pilots on the E170.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[FDJ2]

First, the RJ's pay for themselves and make a profit that supplements your "shortfall."

Not according to DAL's CFO. According to her, it is DAL that is subsidizing CMR, I'd assume the same holds true for ASA.

"Delta chief financial officer Michele Burns said Delta pays for all but operational costs for a Comair passenger, with such costs including the debt for new airplanes, marketing and distribution and other costs.

But she said the company could not say whether Delta makes money on Comair passengers, adding that such statistics were considered for the entire network"

I suppose any airline would be profitable if it had another airline foot the bills. Now exactly who supplements who?

 

[~~~^~~~]

FDJ2:

Well, it is hard to tell since our companies are completely operationally integrated. But I would appreciate a source on your quote.

Common sense would tell us that the Comapny would not order additional aircraft (up to ALPA's arbitrary scope limit) to place in a money losing operation. But, I'm sure common sense has little to do with this....

Thanks,
~~~^~~~

 

[furloughfodder]

Hang in there General (and other Delta pilots). It will be a hard bumpy road.

Thanks to the "roll-over" APA at my company and all the LCC's dragging the pay scales down you guys are the last hope for the "Major Airline" pilots out there.

 

[CatYaaak]

ALL PILOTS have a stake in what happens to the Delta pilot wage rates (the rates against which other rates are measured)

Well, I don't have any stake in what happens to Delta pilot wages, but I think you've got it wrong .... pilot wages vs. pilot wages at another carrier are measured against each other when everyone making money. When your company is awash with red ink, pilot wages are measured against the bottom line. When you're sitting on the bubble, the bottom line still looms.

 

[spanky2]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,
Say what you wish regarding CRJs. DCI is getting new planes...Delta mainline (aka, Delta Connection Connection) is not. We grow tired of the "RJs are self-financing" propaganda. Falsehood? Believe what you wish. It's a free country.

Lack of trust finger pointed in the general direction of Delta mgt. You want to point at DALPA, go ahead. DALPA did not furlough any pilots. They have offerred substantial concessions. They may very well sell the furloughed pilots down the river...for better box lunches. Don't know, don't pay dues, don't have a vote. But since furlough is such a badge of honor maybe I will get a big red "F" on my forehead. What do you think?

"You junior guys better wake up." Seniority is just a number, not a rank. Can I please join the RJDC as a honorary member? DALPA does not listen to me. But, I guess it is OK for ALPA to take flying away from mainline...it has/is happening as we speak.

I know very well who ultimately will take care of me and who is responsible for my family...it is the guy I see in the mirror when I brush my teeth. Not bitter. Sometimes life throws you a curve...and I can hit curves.

Thanks for your concern. I enjoy knocking craniums with a Captain.

OBTW - You said third twice.

 

[sleepy]

Why doesn't G just take the 15% he can get from you now, then get the rest in Section 6 in a few years?

 

[FL717]

Thanks to the "roll-over" APA at my company and all the LCC's dragging the pay scales down you guys are the last hope for the "Major Airline" pilots out there.

Its just great to listen to a "furlough fodder" chanting about the people actually working at growing companies dragging down the profession. American has been around for how many decades?? You think they'd figure out how to run an airline by now.

BTW - Southwest Airlines and their lowly payscale pilots have been around for decades during this same time period. During that time, American Airlines and all the major airlines have earned 100's of billions of dollars.

Where'd the cash go? Sounds more like the problem is your management, and not us at the LCC's. But if it makes you feel better to take a swipe at us... then knock yourself out.


So okay, according to you .. what are my choices....I can either:

A. Quit my job today and encourage all pilots at SWA, ATA, jetBlue, FL, F9, and any other "LCC" etc stc, to immediately quit their jobs also, so American can expand and you can enjoy the rest of your life at the expense of me and the rest of us working a desk job somewhere;

OR

B. Log off the computer, go out and enjoy spending my "lowly, dragging down the profession" six figure income that I currently earn, and tell you to go "F" yourself.

Hmmmm.... decisions, decisions.

Okay... I elect B.

Go "F" yourself.

 

[doh]

fdj2,
I have a hard time with this stuff, so help me out.Delta and Comair management wants us (CMR pilots) to take a pay cut. They tell us we make a profit. You say that your VP says there is no way to tell. Okay, is management that stupid then or what. Why say we make money if we don't, cause they ain't gettin' one thin dime from me until they are losing money.Explain that to me please!

 

[On Your Six]

Doh,

Check out one of the earlier responses related to Comair "making money" - The General and FDJ2 have some good explanations for that.

When would anyone assume Management is intelligent? Why did UAL tank? Why is USAirways contantly broke and on the verge of collapse? Their managements contributed to their problems and didn't prevent them... Only Southwest's management can claim to be reasonably intelligent over the last decade or so.

It makes sense for Comair employees to also shoulder SOME of the burden - not just the Delta mainline pilots... Since when is it fair to target just one group of employees if the entire ship is having issues? This argument continues to make the rounds over and over and over...

As a team, everyone should particpate in cost reduction - including Management...

 

[~~~^~~~]

DALPA did not furlough any pilots. They have offerred substantial concessions.

Can I please join the RJDC as a honorary member?

OBTW - You said third twice.

First, DALPA's apartied policies and bigotry against fellow ALPA members at ASA and Comair are the reasons the 2000 BOD denied our merger application. If it was not for the position taken by your MEC, I would be doing your external inspections while you drink Starbucks in the left seat of a shiny new CRJ700.

Second, the RJDC has some members at Delta and some of your LEC folks contribute, believe it or not. Their contributions are very small and I think they did it because they believe the fee to process the contributions exceeds the "revenue" generated. That is not the case, but the RJDC appreciates the support all the same.

Third, you NAILED me - bravo! Expecially after my smart aleck comments! Good job.

~~~^~~~

 

[FDJ2]

Doh,

CMR get "X" dollars from DAL for providing small jet lift which costs CMR "Y" dollars to operate. "X" is greater than "Y" so CMR is profitable. Except the problem for DAL is that the actual cost is greater than "Y" to get that revenue passenger in that seat and to his destination.

Now here is the tricky part, "Y" dollars does not cover the cost of delivering those revenue passengers to their respective destination on that CMR flight because "Y" does not include the other expenses, beyond operating expenses incurred by CMR, that DAL must pay in order to move those passengers on your CMR jet.

System wide these expenses in 2003 included but are not limited to, selling expenses ($479M), passenger commissions ($211M), asset writedowns and restructuring ($268M) non fleet CAPEX like those kiosks the passengers used ($500M ) and the infamous "other" on the end of year report($621M). All those expenses are covered by DAL. That is why DAL can not claim that CMR makes a profit for DAL, because the total revenue does not equal the total cost of moving butts on your jets.

The problem for you is that Chautauqua and Skywest can provide that same lift for "Z" dollars, leaving more dollars in DAL's pocket to cover all those other expenses associated with running an airline and not just a small jet provider. The less DAL spends on small jet lift, the more DAL has to pay those other expenses.

 

[furloughfodder]

FL717,

It is soooo easy to get your blood boiling.

Now go on back to the "Regionals" board junior.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Z is higher!

The problem for you is that Chautauqua and Skywest can provide that same lift for "Z" dollars, leaving more dollars in DAL's pocket to cover all those other expenses associated with running an airline and not just a small jet provider. The less DAL spends on small jet lift, the more DAL has to pay those other expenses.

This is not the case. Delta still has all of those costs you described above. It does not change whether it is a WO or Contract Carrier. The problem for the CC's is that they must do everything that the WO's do and still make a profit. The fee for departure includes the CC's fixed costs plus profit. Delta can (and does) operate the WO's cheaper than the CC's. The reason (which I am sure you already know) that the CC's are even around, is because they can purchase their own aircraft. Delta on it's own can not expand the WO's fast enough nor come up with the purchasing power it needs to expand at the rate it wants to. Pool the resources and it becomes much easier.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Now go on back to the "Regionals" board junior

What a douchebag! Shouldn't you be at the furloughed board?

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Z is higher!

[B

This is not the case. Delta still has all of those costs you described above. It does not change whether it is a WO or Contract Carrier. The problem for the CC's is that they must do everything that the WO's do and still make a profit. The fee for departure includes the CC's fixed costs plus profit. Delta can (and does) operate the WO's cheaper than the CC's. [/B]

Well you are partly right, you are wrong and you are a little off the mark in one aspect.

You are partly right when you claim that DAL must still must bear some of those other costs regardless of whether they use a WO or CC, but DAL must pay more of those costs for a WO. Specifically maintaining the debt, and absorbing the charge to depreciation, which system wide was $1.2B last year alone.

You are wrong if you think that the CC cost more to operate than the WO. Have you noticed that CMR got zero growth aircraft due to their non competitive cost structure? Not one, yet Chautauqua and Skywest did.

And you are a little off the mark. The point is that DAL can not state that CMR/ASA are making money for DAL, since DAL pays for many of CMR/ASAs bills. So even if CMR claims a profit, it doesn't mean that CMR is a profitable WO for DAL.