Delta screws over Mesaba Pilots compared to Compass

[xjgearbtch]

Less than 100 mesaba pilots will be able to flow compared to Compass's entire list. Thanks Delta for showing your true colors.

 

[CX880]

When you say Delta, you mean ALPA since all parties that negotiated are ALPA. I'm sure they had a good reason for allowing all of Compass vs a fraction of Mesaba though.

 

[Mel Sharples]

I realize Delta doesn't owe XJ pilots anything. I'm happy for all the Compass and XJ pilots who can flow. Congrats and good luck to you all.

That said, the line they drew to be the ending point for the XJ flow makes zero sense. Those same pilots who went through bankruptcy and all the other crap don't get the same reward that new hires at Compass get? The cutoff line is at 12 years of seniority at XJ. That doesn't cover a years worth of flow (at 9/month) or all the pilots who were captains during backruptcy.

I just would like to know why Delta and/or the Delta pilots felt the need to make that the end point. Seems they wanted to recognize all the Compass pilots, including those who have never flown a single flight at Compass, yet hundreds of XJ pilots with 10+ years are now stuck at the new Pinnacle.

WTF, over?

 

[flyboyike]

Relax, gentlemen, in the end no-one will flow anywhere, so it's a moot point. This is like arguing over who didn't get a better-tasting donut.

 

[bri5150]

Relax, gentlemen, in the end no-one will flow anywhere, so it's a moot point. This is like arguing over who didn't get a better-tasting donut.

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? There have already been flows, and there will be 9 more next month from Mesaba alone. I love FI.

 

[Jar Jar]

Is Mesaba subject to a flow-back?

 

[titans10]

Probably because of the entire list at compass could have been flushed. Unlike, Mesaba where only the total number of flow positions would have been the flowback number.

 

[i fly boxes]

Also compass pilots were hired by nwa captains where as mesaba guys were hired by joe mesaba. It sucks mesaba guys sorry

 

[Oakum_Boy]

That is correct, and a great call. Regional hiring departments were scraping the bottom of the barrel as of late, but Compass still had a more legit hiring dept knowing the guys would flow up eventually.

 

[xjgearbtch]

That is correct, and a great call. Regional hiring departments were scraping the bottom of the barrel as of late, but Compass still had a more legit hiring dept knowing the guys would flow up eventually.

Scrapping from the bottom of the barrel huh... That's why we have a 66 year pilot safety record. No fatalities no hull loss. You can claim all you want about superior hiring dept. But when you compare apples to apples there is no comparison. The pilots that would flow in the next three years would of all had, at minimum, 11+ years of 121 operations, specifically in the service of NWA and now DAl. But they're from the "bottom of the barrel".

Good call Oakum.....

 

[Oakum_Boy]

They had to draw the line somewhere. And congrats on your safety record. Mesa can claim that too.

 

[Monster Buck]

That is correct, and a great call. Regional hiring departments were scraping the bottom of the barrel as of late, but Compass still had a more legit hiring dept knowing the guys would flow up eventually.

Maybe more stringent than Mesaba but no where near a real Delta or NWA interview. The same Delta interviewee this year and a Compass interviewee are not held to nearly the same standard. No cog tests, nor ten or so year history of flying at the commuters with a clean acc/inc and training history. Compass guys can puff their chest all they want about the interview, but just because you made it past a compass interview doesn't credit you for passing a Delta interview. Two different birds. No matter how you slice it and talk about who was there asking the questions or not, or how much experience the initial new hires had. Not the same hiring standard AT ALL. Sorry, you may make the list but you are no better than any other Mesaba flow.

 

[DoinTime]

I realize Delta doesn't owe XJ pilots anything. I'm happy for all the Compass and XJ pilots who can flow. Congrats and good luck to you all.

That said, the line they drew to be the ending point for the XJ flow makes zero sense. Those same pilots who went through bankruptcy and all the other crap don't get the same reward that new hires at Compass get? The cutoff line is at 12 years of seniority at XJ. That doesn't cover a years worth of flow (at 9/month) or all the pilots who were captains during backruptcy.

I just would like to know why Delta and/or the Delta pilots felt the need to make that the end point. Seems they wanted to recognize all the Compass pilots, including those who have never flown a single flight at Compass, yet hundreds of XJ pilots with 10+ years are now stuck at the new Pinnacle.

WTF, over?

It makes perfect sense. If the Compass flow went away now, DAL would have to curtail the number of 76 seat jets in the DCI fleet. This is by agreement between DAL and DAL ALPA. By grandfathering in Compass's whole list, it gives DAL management years to figure out a way out of those provisions and/or grow their fleet to accommodate more 76 seaters. DAL could have turned the switch off at Mesaba any time with any repercussion to their operation. It all came down to the fact that DAL didn't have to honor the Mesaba flow, so they didn't.

 

[on autopilot]

Less than 100 mesaba pilots will be able to flow compared to Compass's entire list. Thanks Delta for showing your true colors.

Oh Please. Delta is no more. It's Northwest in Delta colors, and until they get Northwest management out of Deltas' board room, expect more of the same.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Maybe more stringent than Mesaba but no where near a real Delta or NWA interview.

You're right. But there isn't anyone on DL property who can vouch for the XJ interview process. The flow isn't wanted by DL, and they've eliminated it as they've wanted all along.

 

[buscap]

I happen to know some of the guys/gals hired by Delta and Northwest. And I've ridden on a few jumpseats.

From this humble knowledge I am very prepared to express my opinion-that everyone is just a little overconfident in their hiring process. Do not mistake a complicated set of hoops for a proper pilot filter. While mostly effective, many factors such as race, really good contacts, nepotism and expensive interview prep, result in quite a few folks getting hired who really aren't any better than than those not hired-perhaps worse even.

That being said, I can't blame the pilots at Delta for wanting complete control over who gets hired, just please don't make the mistake of thinking they are only hiring the best and the brightest. They simply and justifiably want control of the process.

 

[johnsonrod]

Scrapping from the bottom of the barrel huh... That's why we have a 66 year pilot safety record. No fatalities no hull loss. You can claim all you want about superior hiring dept. But when you compare apples to apples there is no comparison. The pilots that would flow in the next three years would of all had, at minimum, 11+ years of 121 operations, specifically in the service of NWA and now DAl. But they're from the "bottom of the barrel".

Good call Oakum.....

Didn't one of your Avros go off the runway in Rifle, CO after a divert from Aspen?

 

[RiddleRat]

Regardless of who has a better hiring department or who has a better safety record, or for that matter, better pilots, Delta wants control over who gets to fly their jets and this is what all ALPA MECs and management negotiated. I am sure it doesnt help that Mesaba is combining forces w/ Pinnacle and Colgan, so then you have to deal w/ "which pilots get to flow now they are all in a mix".

I hate to see other pilot groups bitter and mad towards the Compass guys, they took a chance and it worked in their favor. I hope this doesn't turn into a Compass bashing because they, as of now, lucked out. We won't be saying that if DAL decides to furlough then the tune of the message boards will be to the effect of "sorry CPZ your loss, etc". Lets all just move forward and not get so spun up over things you can't control...

Mongo

 

[bri5150]

I happen to know some of the guys/gals hired by Delta and Northwest. And I've ridden on a few jumpseats.

From this humble knowledge I am very prepared to express my opinion-that everyone is just a little overconfident in their hiring process. Do not mistake a complicated set of hoops for a proper pilot filter. While mostly effective, many factors such as race, really good contacts, nepotism and expensive interview prep, result in quite a few folks getting hired who really aren't any better than than those not hired-perhaps worse even.

That being said, I can't blame the pilots at Delta for wanting complete control over who gets hired, just please don't make the mistake of thinking they are only hiring the best and the brightest. They simply and justifiably want control of the process.

Especially in the early parts of hiring with so many pilots wanting the job. You hit the nail on the head. It comes down to who you know, and the other unattainable attributes at this point. Unless you flow of course. Oh, and the whale captain's kids of course.

 

[Inconceivable]

Once again DoinTime is completely correct.

When you regional pilots stop arguing over who has the bigger d!ck and start paying attention to where the money goes you may finally have a chance at salvaging a career. In the meantime you are all just along for the ride.

Jesus Christ, like anyone in any airline management cares about anything but the bottom line. Where have you been for the last twenty years?

 

[FDJ2]

Less than 100 mesaba pilots will be able to flow compared to Compass's entire list. Thanks Delta for showing your true colors.

You do know that the Mesaba flow through rights ended with the acquisition and that the Mesaba flow was always much more restrictive than the Compass flow, right?

You must also know that the Delta MEC signed an interim LOA with management to allow for the continued flow through of Mesaba pilots after Mesaba's sale, while four party negotiations were conducted to see if the flow through could continue after September. Without that agreement the flow through would have ended when Mesaba was sold. You know that right?

As the Delta MEC considers this latest loa, to once again extend the flow though agreement for the Mesaba pilots, they might also consider reciprosity (what flow down rights the Delta pilots might get) and possibly the unwarranted sense of entitlment of some.

 

[Jar Jar]

Maybe more stringent than Mesaba but no where near a real Delta or NWA interview. The same Delta interviewee this year and a Compass interviewee are not held to nearly the same standard. No cog tests, nor ten or so year history of flying at the commuters with a clean acc/inc and training history. Compass guys can puff their chest all they want about the interview, but just because you made it past a compass interview doesn't credit you for passing a Delta interview. Two different birds. No matter how you slice it and talk about who was there asking the questions or not, or how much experience the initial new hires had. Not the same hiring standard AT ALL. Sorry, you may make the list but you are no better than any other Mesaba flow.

Actually the newest compass guys all had to take cog tests, personality tests, written aerodynamics/atp/121 ops test, a full medical evaluation and a panel interview. They also had to have a 4 year degree, previous 121 experience and ATP mins.

Also, if you guys are unhappy with the outcome of your TA you need to be bitching at your MEC and management teams. You can tell them to compare your deal to Compass' deal, but really it seems you guys are directing anger at the wrong group.

 

[xjgearbtch]

You do know that the Mesaba flow through rights ended with the acquisition and that the Mesaba flow was always much more restrictive than the Compass flow, right?

You must also know that the Delta MEC signed an interim LOA with management to allow for the continued flow through of Mesaba pilots after Mesaba's sale, while four party negotiations were conducted to see if the flow through could continue after September. Without that agreement the flow through would have ended when Mesaba was sold. You know that right?

As the Delta MEC considers this latest loa, to once again extend the flow though agreement for the Mesaba pilots, they might also consider reciprosity (what flow down rights the Delta pilots might get) and possibly the unwarranted sense of entitlment of some.

My issue isn't with the DAPLPA, they didn't have final controlling authority of retaining mesaba's flow thru. Delta management is who I have a beef with. Hence my thread title.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I will not offer my opinion but I will suggest this:

If the LOA is that bad, make your MEC turn it down and then see what they can get. I am willing to bet it will be a lot less to nothing at all.

 

[Mel Sharples]

Also, if you guys are unhappy with the outcome of your TA you need to be bitching at your MEC and management teams. You can tell them to compare your deal to Compass' deal, but really it seems you guys are directing anger at the wrong group.

:erm:

No one is mad at the Compass pilots. We are just asking why we didn't get a similar deal on the flow from Delta management. No one is attacking the Compass pilots themselves or saying they shouldn't flow.

Tool...

 

[ACL65PILOT]

XJ;
I agree, if you read the loa concerning the flow, you will realize that all DAL had to do was sell XJ and they could cancel the flow. The fact that they agreed to allow a predetermined number to flow, is good faith on their part because there is not much we could do about it. Canceling or keeping the XJ flow has no effect on the DALPA PWA.

What concerns the DAL PWA is the flow downs. Getting rid of those without an agreement from us triggers the seat scope trigger. SO basically they can do anything they want with the flow ups.

CPS gets what they get because many ppl were hired on with the expectation to flow. (Just my guess of course)

 

[Mel Sharples]

I will not offer my opinion but I will suggest this:

If the LOA is that bad, make your MEC turn it down and then see what they can get. I am willing to bet it will be a lot less to nothing at all.

You are correct and that is certainly an option.

But I think most of us realize they tried to capture everyone they could. The beef is with Delta management and why they would give the flow to EVERYONE on Compass property (including new hires) but shafting the Mesaba pilots who have 10+ years and went through bankruptcy. That's all.

But your point is taken, ACL65PILOT.

To the others who say Mesaba pilots are hating on DALPA or Compass or whoever, you aren't paying attention. This is not a tantrum saying no one else should get the flow if we can't. We're just asking why the line was drawn where it was as it is horribly arbitrary.

And the scope issue is not an issue at all. Whether the flow stayed or not had nothing to do with Delta's ability to keep the 76-seat flying so that is not even part of this.

 

[goahead]

So when is the cut off for cz, or is there one. Do the guys hired next get to flow to??? Sounds like it'll be cz, military and minority groups hired at DAL from here on out, awesome.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Mel;
It is simple for DAL management. They want to hire their own pilots not ones that they did not interview or go through the NWAesque process. Right or wrong it is what it is.

Last time I checked the LOA was not "out." Have you read the language? If so send it to me. I would love to read it.

 

[PCL_128]

With this wonderful relationship that the DAL MEC Chairman always claims to have with Richard Anderson and the rest of Delta management, one would think that he could have secured a better deal for the Mesaba pilots. Or maybe he just didn't want to secure a better deal for them. Either way, I hope the Mesaba reps keep this in mind when it comes time to cast their vote for ALPA President in two months.