Delta RFP

[Palerider957]

[

i wouldn't be surprised to see the jets split between CHQ, ASA and CMR. actually, ASA might get stiffed initially since they're in renegotiation. i doubt DCI wants to grow them much while they've got the contract open.

would anybody put it past DCI to, say, threaten to give all the jets to CHQ/CMR unless ASA gives up something they're asking for? and then do the same thing to CMR in two years when our contract's up? [/B]

Hey, that's fine. ASA is an older pilot group, not the 21-23 year olds at the contract carriers. I'd rather get a solid contract then bend over and spread for "growth."

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see ASA get some of these planes, but not at the costs of dignity.

 

[Freebrd]

Hopefully the Company (DeltaAirlines) got the message from the ASA & CMR pilot groups that we will not be bribed. ASA & CMR management cannot quarantee the pilots anything as only big daddy D makes those decisions.

Sure we'd love to have those planes for growth, upgrades, etc, but not at the expense of 15 years worth of contract improvements. We desire to IMPROVE our contract at ASA, and not move backwards, as does our CMR brothers & sisters.

As the General loves to say, the economy is improving, regional flights are full, and the regionals are making money.

Let's dance !!!!!

 

[jrcpilot]

Well Said Freebrd,
ASA needa a big improvement in quality of life issues in the contract. The pay maybe okay but the rest of the contract lacks behind many of the other carriers. I love the rumors that fly on these threads. It's enough to keep one entertained. The big D is going to do whats the best for the bid D whether we like it or not.

Blue skies

 

[CF34-3B1]

Hey, that's fine. ASA is an older pilot group, not the 21-23 year olds at the contract carriers. I'd rather get a solid contract then bend over and spread for "growth."

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see ASA get some of these planes, but not at the costs of dignity.

Amen.

I can't tell you how many of those "do anything to get the upgrade" guys I've talked to that honestly believe SWA or jB is just waiting for them to get that 1000PIC so they can have the honor of hiring them.

4 or 5 or 7 years down the road, they'll figure it out.

 

[ace120]

Did Anyone know that Delta receives stock warrants in CHQ for every aditional aircraft they fly for Delta. Simple facts read the fine print.

ACE

 

[jrcpilot]

ace120,

Where did you read that ace? I would be interested to read up on that. I work for Delta in flight training and have not heard that. If you could give me a reference to the info I would appreciate it.
Thanks

 

[blott]

CHQ is a private company...I think I remember reading in the old IPO (pre 9-11...squashed that idea)about the codeshares getting a good chunk of stock though...Look for a new IPO attemt in the future.

as far as the CRJ vs. ERJ...CHQ doesn't seen to have any problems coming up with financing-or the actual emb's--remember-owned by Wexford-anyone know how many erj/crj's Wexford has? (plus the ERJ is a few million cheaper than the crj)

B

 

[P38JLightning]

Request for predatory bargaining.

All those "do anything for the upgrade" and "bend over for growth" guys at management's trendy, beloved brand management, pilot supply house, virtual airlines should always remember the fragility of their situation.

You may be the growth darlings and the apple of Fred Butrel's eye now, but remember that it is the mainline and WO pilots who will ALWAYS own your flying. (Take that RJDC!)

You see, "your flying" can always be "reclaimed" by the mainline, as well as sucessfuly underbid for by the WO's. Delta can snatch your jobs away and give them to Comair, ASA or "Mid-Atlanta" as they see fit, with the only obligation to you being 6 months notice. The only thing Delta has to do then is take over your leases. They have this option 100 planes at a time or 1 a month, however they want to do it.

So if you suceed in your masterful plan of underbidding and undermining the WO's, don't forget we can ALWAYS underbid you, well after you've gotten the growth. In fact we probably wouldn't have to completely underbid you, because we have that nice fee for departure profit margin to work with that puts you at a disadvantage compared to the WO's.

Now, will we do that? Right now, proably not. But if the contractors keep getting the lions share of the growth because of their gleeful lowballing and predatory bargaining and we're stuck with 9 year upgrades, stagnation or negative growth and the transfer of our flying to those who will do it for less, while they have 1.5 year upgrades and tons of movement, well, we just might chose to use the other edge of that whipsaw that you're currently pulling on and cut your little treehouse out from under you.

If we do chose to do this, now or in the future, the ONLY hurdle will be Delta having to take over the leases of the airframes. But with the economy improving, Delta moving back in the black, the Delta pilots helping out with a generous mid contract pay adjustment and Song flying out of ALL THREE NYC airports big D shouldn't have any problem getting that squared away.

Of course for now this option isn't really even on our radar screens. We're confident other carriers will stop the negative trend and once again start pushing the bar up for all of us.

We have great faith in COEX. They are a rabid group that's well unified and totally in charge of Bethune and company who can NOT afford a strike.

ASA is also in the driver's seat. If the Comair strike cost 3/4 billion in 3 months shutting down their secondary, mainly MD-80 hub, immagine if ATL loses 80-90% of its feed. The losses would be staggering. The Comair "integration" of ATL has mostly been new RJ service and little bit mainline replacement/supplements. Delta can't afford a Candler strike and they know it. ASA is in a position to easily get Comair +5% or more.

The ACA pilots are flipping off the entire virtual airline industry, removing all those "regional" airframes and using them against their former "code share partner team member alliance friends" and although they gave around 2% paycuts, they got a nice profit sharing plan (a pretty good compromise...I'd take that deal, as long as the profits were based on Delta and not a non existant, on paper ony, shell corporation) and have sent the message that when confronted with "concessions for growth" from the mainlines there's one more way in which to "just say no!"

And last but not least Mesaba. They have been screwed with by NWA so bad now, for so long, and their version of the portfolio concept that they may easily be as unified or more so than the Comair pilots were during our 89 day refusal to bend over any longer. I don't think they will be caving any time soon. NWA is just now starting to get a glimpse of profitability. Try telling your shareholders its worth it to piss away half a billion (or more) just to keep one of your 3 pilot groups from getting 1% more than your competitors. Mesaba pilots are also in the driver's seat, even if it takes a fight to get management to accept that.

So there's some positive news out there that should give hope to the pilots of the entire "small jet industry". Even the bottom feeders should celebrate, because every time someone fights to raise the bar, that's that much higher they can go next time around, but yet still be a comfortable margin below those they are backstabbing.

Just don't forget that if the bottom feeders are too sucessful in getting too much growth, the mainlines or WO's (or exclusive jet operators like COEX, who for all intents and purposes are WO'ed) can always, at any time, for any reason, reclaim some or all of that cool code share flying of ours that you do. If and when and how much of it we take back is up to us.

 

[low-key]

Aren;t the results of this RFP due out tomorrow 12-31?? If so I am intersted to see what happens

 

[DrinkSweetTea]

Can anyone else confirm that today is the day of the announcemt?

hmmm....

Delta Connection is expected to order an additional 45 Canadair Regional Jets early in 2004, while Bombardier may supply at least part of 100 to be ordered from Star Alliance partners

 

[CF34-3B1]

P38:

Well said Sir, excellent post.

 

[BlueCanoe]

Re: Beating a Dead Horse

All those "do anything for the upgrade" and "bend over for growth" guys at management's trendy, beloved brand management, pilot supply house, virtual airlines should always remember the fragility of their situation.

You may be the growth darlings and the apple of Fred Butrel's eye now, but remember that it is the mainline and WO pilots who will ALWAYS own your flying. (Take that RJDC!)

You see, "your flying" can always be "reclaimed" by the mainline, as well as sucessfuly underbid for by the WO's. Delta can snatch your jobs away and give them to Comair, ASA or "Mid-Atlanta" as they see fit, with the only obligation to you being 6 months notice. The only thing Delta has to do then is take over your leases. They have this option 100 planes at a time or 1 a month, however they want to do it.

So if you suceed in your masterful plan of underbidding and undermining the WO's, don't forget we can ALWAYS underbid you, well after you've gotten the growth. In fact we probably wouldn't have to completely underbid you, because we have that nice fee for departure profit margin to work with that puts you at a disadvantage compared to the WO's.

Now, will we do that? Right now, proably not. But if the contractors keep getting the lions share of the growth because of their gleeful lowballing and predatory bargaining and we're stuck with 9 year upgrades, stagnation or negative growth and the transfer of our flying to those who will do it for less, while they have 1.5 year upgrades and tons of movement, well, we just might chose to use the other edge of that whipsaw that you're currently pulling on and cut your little treehouse out from under you.

If we do chose to do this, now or in the future, the ONLY hurdle will be Delta having to take over the leases of the airframes. But with the economy improving, Delta moving back in the black, the Delta pilots helping out with a generous mid contract pay adjustment and Song flying out of ALL THREE NYC airports big D shouldn't have any problem getting that squared away.

Of course for now this option isn't really even on our radar screens. We're confident other carriers will stop the negative trend and once again start pushing the bar up for all of us.

We have great faith in COEX. They are a rabid group that's well unified and totally in charge of Bethune and company who can NOT afford a strike.

ASA is also in the driver's seat. If the Comair strike cost 3/4 billion in 3 months shutting down their secondary, mainly MD-80 hub, immagine if ATL loses 80-90% of its feed. The losses would be staggering. The Comair "integration" of ATL has mostly been new RJ service and little bit mainline replacement/supplements. Delta can't afford a Candler strike and they know it. ASA is in a position to easily get Comair +5% or more.

The ACA pilots are flipping off the entire virtual airline industry, removing all those "regional" airframes and using them against their former "code share partner team member alliance friends" and although they gave around 2% paycuts, they got a nice profit sharing plan (a pretty good compromise...I'd take that deal, as long as the profits were based on Delta and not a non existant, on paper ony, shell corporation) and have sent the message that when confronted with "concessions for growth" from the mainlines there's one more way in which to "just say no!"

And last but not least Mesaba. They have been screwed with by NWA so bad now, for so long, and their version of the portfolio concept that they may easily be as unified or more so than the Comair pilots were during our 89 day refusal to bend over any longer. I don't think they will be caving any time soon. NWA is just now starting to get a glimpse of profitability. Try telling your shareholders its worth it to piss away half a billion (or more) just to keep one of your 3 pilot groups from getting 1% more than your competitors. Mesaba pilots are also in the driver's seat, even if it takes a fight to get management to accept that.

So there's some positive news out there that should give hope to the pilots of the entire "small jet industry". Even the bottom feeders should celebrate, because every time someone fights to raise the bar, that's that much higher they can go next time around, but yet still be a comfortable margin below those they are backstabbing.

Just don't forget that if the bottom feeders are too sucessful in getting too much growth, the mainlines or WO's (or exclusive jet operators like COEX, who for all intents and purposes are WO'ed) can always, at any time, for any reason, reclaim some or all of that cool code share flying of ours that you do. If and when and how much of it we take back is up to us.

Those are some interesting thoughts. As a, how did you so delicately put it, "'do anything for upgrade' and 'bend over for growth'." Contract Carrier pilot, please allow me to retort (At least for myself, as I do not represent the pilot population as a whole).

Your whole rant about the WO deal and it's "flying WE own" is OLD. EVERYONE is tired of hearing it. We all understand your frustration. However, let's get some facts straight:

1) The U WO's invented, developed and probably copyrighted your ideas and sentences. You probably owe them some royalties, or something.

2) It's NOT your flying. It is MGT's flying to dole out as they see fit. This is true for any airline. Scope clauses, RJDC, and what not, help secure jobs, but if MGT wants to contract flying they will. The most restrictive scope I know of in the industry was US Air pre-9/11. How did it work for them?

3) You probably haven't worked for an airline long enough yet to realize this, but flying always ebbs and flows. Weak economy = contract carriers (which ASA was up until a couple years ago) growing. Strong economy = Mainline and subsidiary growth. If you don't believe me, just watch what happens as the economy recovers. What happened last time the economy was booming? Mainlines placed record A/C orders, WO all grew and contract cariers like Mesa, TSA, and CHQ had, and in the future will have, tough times.

Personally, I don't care that you talk junk. It merely shows your ignorance of the fragility of the entire industry. A dog could fart in China one day and any major could go under.

Whatever you do, learn some history, and quite lecturing on the obvious.

 

[NoName]

The Bids are Out

Heres the break down

Comair- 15 CRJs
ASA-20 CRJs
Mesa-10 CRJs (possibly Midway CRJs?)

Happy Flying!

 

[General Lee]

Those Mesa RJs could have come from the Frontier RJs that were just replaced by Horizon CR7s. Regardless, the addition of Mesa into the DCI mix will really make things interesting.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[CF34-3B1]

Re: The Bids are Out

Heres the break down

Comair- 15 CRJs
ASA-20 CRJs
Mesa-10 CRJs (possibly Midway CRJs?)

Happy Flying!

NoName, where did you get this info? Can you provide s a link?