Delta pilots to strike?

[surplus1]

finally an airline pilot union with some cajones after 9/11.

It is left to be seen whether those sacks actually contain nuts of the cojones turn up missing in action.

They are right to say no. But, saying no now and voting with their feet later are two very different things. We shall see who has the real cojones.

 

[whymeworry?]

CONGRATS to the DELTA MEC for standing up to the onslaught by lawyers and highly corrupt management types that are victimizing our professsion.

Lawyers in this country own Washington. Therefore, they take carte blanche when it comes to bully the working man through smoke-and-mirrors legal manuevering. All the while, they STEAL from the company coffers due to lack of congressional oversight and lack of limits to what these hethans can charge.

What the lawyers don't realize is the power of a mob. Thus far there has been no "mob" to fight them. The UAL pilots folded like a wet noodle, the USAir pilots did the same. If DAL pilots mobilize in force, a mob will be headed to the steps of the courthouse. I believe management AND the lawyers will come to the realization that pilots are part of the solution... not part of the problem. With the price of fuel as high as it is these days, management types are CRAZY to be pushing the very employee group that can control the overall economics of the airline (read: hands on the thrust levers/ managers of the #1 company asset, the airlplane).

You DAL guys and gals have my (our) full support. Please stand and fight for our profession. Believe me when I tell you, if and when our time comes I will certainly be doing the same.

After two concession cuts, AQ management signed an agreement that they would NEVER seek to file 1113.They outright LIED. Thus far the AQ pilots have drawn their line in the sand (no pun intended). DAL mgmt made the same sort of commitment last year when they said they would only ask the pilots once for concessions. You guys/ gals coughed up $1 billion in concessions and they want more? Time to show them who runs the airline!

 

[AMRCostUnit]

The loudest most frightening sound to GE Capitial and any other creditors is the sound of a silent jet engine. If there was a creditible threat of hundreds of parked airliners around the country and the world they would go after someone elses cheese. They are betting that will not happen and so far they are winning. I mean, the price of jets on the market would plumment and just where are they going to find the repo pilots to go get the jets from where they are parked?

Yes. it wouldn't be pretty. Judges, lawyers, media, passengers all whinning about it but we'd have to stand fast. Eventually they'd come to us or wouldn't let it happen in the first place. We have to put it all on the line in order to stop the slide.

Unit
Ready

 

[Dizel8]

Storm in a glass of water, the management-labor rhetoric always get hot and heavy during negotiations.

Like someone else said, it is a game of chicken, who will flinch first?

 

[spinproof]

It is left to be seen whether those sacks actually contain nuts of the cojones turn up missing in action.

They are right to say no. But, saying no now and voting with their feet later are two very different things. We shall see who has the real cojones.

Well said. The true test will be those who will FIGHT! Stand tall and defend your territory! Remember managements ONLY goal is your capulation.

Now close ranks and dress right!

 

[Purpledog]

Good luck fellas. Take the fight to them.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Storm in a glass of water, the management-labor rhetoric always get hot and heavy during negotiations.

Like someone else said, it is a game of chicken, who will flinch first?

Why, the pilots will....We always have, and we always will.
We are our own worst enemy.


PHXFLYR

 

[GoABX]

<<Liquidation vs. capitulation. >> seems to be the debate but this assumes that 'most' of the pilots actually walk and they can shut the airline down temporarily. True after so many cuts there comes a point when someone asks whether the job is worth it anymore...the problem is that point ranges across a wide spectrum for a diverse seniority group.

The guy who just missed his early out opportunity might think going from $250k to $160K sucks but he can tolerate it because he has no other options and will make up the difference in overtime. (The horse may die, but hopefully it will get me home.)

The younger guys may be living on hope. They made it to the "show" and have no plans on taking 2 steps back. They might think I have 20 years left, so I'll ride out this storm and make it up at the end. At least i'm making $70K while I'm waiting. (The horse is sick, but it might get better if I can unload some of the extra weight it is carrying.)

And the guys in the middle may have their own excuses for not going "all in."

The point is everyone can make an excuse for their actions. Getting the majority to walk out will be a huge undertaking...but this is the only option short of accepting whatever management dictates. Fear is rightfully running rampant. Now is the time to decide what you are willing to do; start consensus building, pilots talking to pilots. Someone else may be betting all of your chips on one hand, now is not the time to be timid, quiet, or a herd follower.

(Passenger) Airline management has been following a playbook that has been very successful. Someone has to break their streak. Good luck men.

 

[bafanguy]

After a few beers among fellow pilots, the following was proposed:

Why not have the pilot union actively seek and interview their choice for replacement management, one they feel will do what is best for them and the company. Make it an ultimatum, we work for the guys we picked, or let the games begin... That would put a few boards on edge if the union came up with a reasonable management team.

Maybe to many beers...

scoreboard,

You've made my day and given me a reason to laugh. Yep, waaaay too many beers.

 

[DaveGriffin]

CONGRATS to the DELTA MEC for standing up to the onslaught by lawyers and highly corrupt management types that are victimizing our professsion.

Lawyers in this country own Washington. Therefore, they take carte blanche when it comes to bully the working man through smoke-and-mirrors legal manuevering. All the while, they STEAL from the company coffers due to lack of congressional oversight and lack of limits to what these hethans can charge.

What the lawyers don't realize is the power of a mob. Thus far there has been no "mob" to fight them. The UAL pilots folded like a wet noodle, the USAir pilots did the same. If DAL pilots mobilize in force, a mob will be headed to the steps of the courthouse. I believe management AND the lawyers will come to the realization that pilots are part of the solution... not part of the problem. With the price of fuel as high as it is these days, management types are CRAZY to be pushing the very employee group that can control the overall economics of the airline (read: hands on the thrust levers/ managers of the #1 company asset, the airlplane).

You DAL guys and gals have my (our) full support. Please stand and fight for our profession. Believe me when I tell you, if and when our time comes I will certainly be doing the same.

After two concession cuts, AQ management signed an agreement that they would NEVER seek to file 1113.They outright LIED. Thus far the AQ pilots have drawn their line in the sand (no pun intended). DAL mgmt made the same sort of commitment last year when they said they would only ask the pilots once for concessions. You guys/ gals coughed up $1 billion in concessions and they want more? Time to show them who runs the airline!

It's always the loudmouths from other companies that want the guys in the fight to take the arrows for them. Talk is cheap WMW.

If you had been paying attention for the last few years you would know that the MEC has burned any claim to fair-play by delaying the 2002-2004 negotiations past the point of no return so that the pilots-with-paychecks could take advantage of the C2K, allowing the seniors who qualified for regular and early retirement to hit the ground running by maxing out their last 3 years. This brinkmanship is what got us where we are now.

The PRP fiasco, still continuing, has also cost support among many pilots.

All that being said, there will never be a strike. The greedy, short-sighted SOBs who run DALPA have way too much to lose. They are only using this as a way to energize the activist minority with this BS bluff.

 

[Spooky 1]

Okay, I know I will get the usual name calling and other BS, and in a way this is flame bait, but I would bet that DAL management (that's the first joke), will try to scab the airline and keep it running. Probably will fail, but probably they will fail anyway. This management has clearly shown their hostile intent and preparedness for this debacle they find them selves in. If they had shown this much foresight before, they proably would not be in half the trouble they are in now.

Contrary to popular belief on this website, I believe there are enough pilots out of work, or those who think this is their last big chance, that they could man the airline at at least 50% within 60 days, and after that get it up to something around 75% within four to five months. Remember, they are in BK already and if the judge(s) are prone to be anti-labor, they will continue to bend over backwards to keep this thing going.

I would hesitate to paint all the early out pilots as potential scabs as that would be a hugh disservice to this group. But it could easily be the core group to get the operation up and running again if enough crossed over. Losing ones pension could be a mighty persueder in this case. Followed by any number of other sources, including active and furloughed Delta pilots, pilots who are furloughed from other airlines. There are just to many qualifed pilots out of work today to dismiss all of them as non-combatants. Take a look at how many CAL and EAL scabs showed up for work and that was during much better times with dynamics that pale compared to todays airline situations.

I knew a couple of pilots at Western Airlines who were flying Capt. on the B727 that bailed to go over to UAL during that strike. I couldn't fathom how they could do this, but none the less there they were working at UAL. Both of these guys were considered great guys to fly with and be around but when it looked like Western might fail, they caught the first ride out of town. Unbelieveable, yes.
Unlikely, No. Go figure.

 

[800Dog]

It's always the loudmouths from other companies that want the guys in the fight to take the arrows for them. Talk is cheap WMW.

If you had been paying attention for the last few years you would know that the MEC has burned any claim to fair-play by delaying the 2002-2004 negotiations past the point of no return so that the pilots-with-paychecks could take advantage of the C2K, allowing the seniors who qualified for regular and early retirement to hit the ground running by maxing out their last 3 years. This brinkmanship is what got us where we are now.

The PRP fiasco, still continuing, has also cost support among many pilots.

All that being said, there will never be a strike. The greedy, short-sighted SOBs who run DALPA have way too much to lose. They are only using this as a way to energize the activist minority with this BS bluff.

Dave, you refer what got the Delta folks where they are know as US. Are you a Delta pilot and if not, why do feel you can speak for them. Why don't you you just look out for your own life and let the real Delta Pilots handle their business.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I knew a couple of pilots at Western Airlines who were flying Capt. on the B727 that bailed to go over to UAL during that strike. I couldn't fathom how they could do this, but none the less there they were working at UAL. Both of these guys were considered great guys to fly with and be around but when it looked like Western might fail, they caught the first ride out of town. Unbelieveable, yes.
Unlikely, No. Go figure.

Not sure what you are trying to point out here. I'm assuming these Western 727 captains were not scabbing by quiting and moving to UAL.

It is very smart to have enough cash saved up to be able to take advantage of another opportunity. Why? Because you may be furloughed or have your airline decare Ch 7 on you when aviation jobs are more scarce. If you leave as a Capt when opportunites around you are better then I count you as one smart cookie. If everyone around you gets the same idea it would be good to beat them to the punch. Seniority is everything You also make room for someone else to upgrade.

We've seen a lot folks leave UAL in 2000-2002 for jobs at JetBlue. Call it what you will, but they are back to Captain again in this turbulent industry. This willingness to pick up and move has got to be a very tough mindset to cultivate. They had a well educated and disciplined approach to protecting their careers before they hit the 45-60 range. A tough, tough decision to make but one that MAY pay dividends.

These so called opportunities don't always work out as planned but you gotta do the best you can, right?

 

[pilotyip]

remember the old UAL battle cry from the old board in 2001 "Max Pay to the last day" and on the last day they took what pay was offered.

 

[Networ-King]

Dave,

I rarely agree with you and you way of thinking, but this time I have to handed to you...... you nailed it right on the head. In this day and time there are WAY too many pilots out there that would cross the line IF, and thats a big if, there was a strike. After the last 4 years I have seen alot of smoke and mirrors from DALPA and IMHO I think this another move by DALPA that is the but t of managements golfcourse jokes. I really do hope that Im wrong, but I have little .....err.... NO FAITH in DALPA to prove me wrong. I guess its a step in the right direction to at least say they're going to strike.

Scabs calling all Scabsz<---- wait till you see these guys lining up on delta's door step. It'll be like the line at the New StarWars movie... guys/gals in their chairs with their coolers, sleeping bags and all of them dressed in their ebay bought Delta pilots uniform.

 

[eljefe]

Talk about deja vu all over again! This thread rings soooooo familiar.

If I'd saved the the threads from the ALPA bulletin board circa 1988/89, this would sound like an instant replay. Only the paint job and the names have changed.

Good luck to the Delta guys. You're going to need it. My only advice is if the situation is grim enough to you personally to hit the bricks...do so with the full knowledge that you may never come back through that door.

 

[Publishers]

There is really no airline today that can withstand a strike and emerge with anything positive. That of course does not include the NWA type of situation with the mechanics.

A strike does not make the market go away nor does it terrifically impact the hard assets. The market remains the same size, it is just a matter of who will serve it.

One must remember that pioneers get all the arrows, and, settlers then get the rewards.... While it would be agreed that pilots are an intregal part of the airline, that they do have their hands on controls of the assets, nevertheless they are not that big a part of the success or failure of the airline.

It would be a good deal more productive if one looked at what the new industry was like, and tailored your efforts to the realism of todays market and forget about whatever glories existed yesterday or the day before. What is the paradyme of today?

 

[radarlove]

What is the paradyme of today?

Yawn.

Did someone say something?

 

[Spooky 1]

Not sure what you are trying to point out here. I'm assuming these Western 727 captains were not scabbing by quiting and moving to UAL.

It is very smart to have enough cash saved up to be able to take advantage of another opportunity. Why? Because you may be furloughed or have your airline decare Ch 7 on you when aviation jobs are more scarce. If you leave as a Capt when opportunites around you are better then I count you as one smart cookie. If everyone around you gets the same idea it would be good to beat them to the punch. Seniority is everything You also make room for someone else to upgrade.

We've seen a lot folks leave UAL in 2000-2002 for jobs at JetBlue. Call it what you will, but they are back to Captain again in this turbulent industry. This willingness to pick up and move has got to be a very tough mindset to cultivate. They had a well educated and disciplined approach to protecting their careers before they hit the 45-60 range. A tough, tough decision to make but one that MAY pay dividends.

These so called opportunities don't always work out as planned but you gotta do the best you can, right?

FlyBoeingJets.........that's excactly what I meant. These guys traded their Western B727 Capt. jobs for scab DC10 jobs at UAL. One of them became a assistant to some VP that was in charge of regulatory affairs and later jumper to both UPS and ATA in admin. flight ops positions. Crazy for sure, but it happened none the less. A freind of mine ran into one of these guys in SLC the other day. He is of course over sixty, so he is teaching in some trade school around here. He would not admit who he was to the guy, even though the guy recognized him!

 

[whymeworry?]

It's always the loudmouths from other companies that want the guys in the fight to take the arrows for them. Talk is cheap WMW.

If you had been paying attention for the last few years you would know that the MEC has burned any claim to fair-play by delaying the 2002-2004 negotiations past the point of no return so that the pilots-with-paychecks could take advantage of the C2K, allowing the seniors who qualified for regular and early retirement to hit the ground running by maxing out their last 3 years. This brinkmanship is what got us where we are now.

The PRP fiasco, still continuing, has also cost support among many pilots.

All that being said, there will never be a strike. The greedy, short-sighted SOBs who run DALPA have way too much to lose. They are only using this as a way to energize the activist minority with this BS bluff.

So what do you expect me to do, keep my mouth shut and watch another ALPA MEC fold? I may be from another carrier but I WILL FIGHT when our time comes and I have fought before. If we keep giving our profession away to the CH11 lawyers, all of us will face the challenge that DAL is facing at some point anyway. As an ALPA brother, I accordingly support DAL pilots in their quest to preserve the last strands dignity within our profession. Regardless of my comments, however, you initially call me the loudmouth wanting someone else to take the arrows but then you assault the DAL MEC for being greedy and playing games. Sounds like your beef should be with the DAL MEC (if they are indeed only using the strike as a ploy to manipulate the pilot group). If that is the case, are you fighting to get your MEC to fight? Or are you just laying back and taking whatever you get?

It's funny, sometimes you show your support yet those you wish to help see you as the problem for not actually being in their fight. Sorry I don't work for DAL. But if I did, I would be picketing at the MEC, at management and the courthouse steps until we got a FAIR deal.

The NW pilots are being told to take a 24% paycut which amounts to $215 mil a year. Ironically, I'm sure the legal bill for the CH11 filing will be in excess of $500,000,000. So who are the pilots helping by taking concessions? The company or the bancruptcy consultants and laywers?