Delta pilots, this is the man who gave away half of your paychecks, not a rj pilot

[benjakes]

"Can someone give me a clue?"

 

[McFly737]

Time will tell, but hopefully thats the man who led the Delta pilot group to the most resounding vote of Delta's history. No one blames the RJ pilots, just contracts with weak scope clauses.

McFly

 

[DTW320]

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/delta/stories/SbizMoakUpclose3.htmlhttp://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/01/16/60/image_3160161.jpg

"Can someone give me a clue?"

Can someone give YOU a clue?

I'm beginning to doubt it.

I guess the fact that all the paycuts passed a vote of the membership is lost on you. It's all Leo's fault! He single handedly forced the paycuts on the Delta pilots!!

 

[Occam's Razor]

"Can someone give me a clue?"

I hope...'cause brother, you need one!

Lee Moak is a class act.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Can someone give YOU a clue?

I'm beginning to doubt it.

I guess the fact that all the paycuts passed a vote of the membership is lost on you. It's all Leo's fault! He single handedly forced the paycuts on the Delta pilots!!

Of course that means you will vote "NO" on that ridiculous TA right?

Is anybody going to grow a pair?

Is everyone out there going to say "Thank you sir, may I have another"

The fuel keeps going up, what next? $3000/ month to fly A-340's like Branson is paying in Africa?

 

[PowerRanger]

oh sorry I must have typed in rumor&conjectureinfo.com

 

[General Lee]

[URL="http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/01/16/60/image_3160161.jpg"]http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/01/16/60/image_3160161.jpg[/URL]

"Can someone give me a clue?"

That may be true, but we sure can try to change the future course. If we give in to scope, we will eventually be cutting our own jobs through outsourcing. The line must be made NOW in the sand. I think we will.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[LearAv8r]

General...when do you guys vote and when does the vote close?

 

[michael707767]

I hope...'cause brother, you need one!

Lee Moak is a class act.

let's see if you still think so after the TA details come out officially. Remember, he has publicly said, many times, that anything larger than 70 seats would be flown by the Delta pilots.

 

[Occam's Razor]

let's see if you still think so after the TA details come out officially. Remember, he has publicly said, many times, that anything larger than 70 seats would be flown by the Delta pilots.

First, Lee Moak is my friend. I don't think he's a class act...I know he is.

Second, he's stepped-up to be a leader during the most difficult time for Labor in 50-years. He is making decisions that will not be popular with 100% of his constituents, since that's impossible in even the best of times. Maybe the truest indicator of his performance and judgement is the caliber of the pilots who ping on him. It's always amusing to see so many critics...and so few candidates.

 

["GO AROUND"]

A bunch of monday morning quarter backs that would rather ride the pine then risk getting sacked.

IMO

 

[spanky2]

Hey Ben,
Try these on for size ...

"Leadership is not a popularity contest."

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."

 

[benjakes]

Y'all are missing my point.

I never said Lee is not a class act. Check the messages.

The issue is as long as your union does not COLLECTIVLY bargain for ALL PILOTS at Delta, you will continue to lose.

Lee, and his brethren at Comair and ASA (different company, but the same work/contractual obligations), should have said right after bankruptcy:

We will sit down together, and fairly negotiate all flying as one. No more partiality to Delta mainline.

Scope is KILLING DELTA MAINLINE PILOTS.

Management long ago instituted a divide and conquer strategy, and they are killing you with it.

It allows them to win with the flying public, it allows them to keep furloughed pilots at home, and to continue to erode EVERONE'S pay.

UNITY WILL WIN, anything else will lose. Get a single compensation system. Yes, you will need to get bloody at first, but then you control your health, not the company.

 

[General Lee]

General...when do you guys vote and when does the vote close?

That is all a mystery, but I think we will get to see the TA on THURS, and then there will be roadshows, and then a week or so to vote I would guess. Maybe 2-3 more weeks total?

And this from a code-a-phone:

Item one. ALPA will not publicly comment on the proposed Tentative Agreement reached by the negotiating committees of the union and Delta. Our governing body, the Delta MEC, must have time to study the agreement before we release any detail or make any comment on the agreement to the public. We can say that the figures quoted in the April 15, Wall Street Journal article titled "Delta, Pilots Reach Tentative Deal" are not accurate.





Hmmmmmmm.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[rjcap]

Hey Ben,
Try these on for size ...

"Leadership is not a popularity contest."

"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."

You missed one.

"The price of leadership is criticism."

Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Y'all are missing my point.

I never said Lee is not a class act. Check the messages.

Lee's inability to gain traction in negotiations are not necessarily his fault. It will be up to the membership to make the call on accepting the pay cut, not Lee Moak. The company, judge, American businees law and current events all have more say in the matter. Saying Lee Moak is responsible for the loss of pay is an inflammatory statement. Saying Lee Moak is class act is in opposition to the previous statement.

I don't have a problem with your change of heart, but which is it? Is Lee Moak responsible for the loss of pay or is he a class act, in your opinion??

For what its worth, I don't think you guys can legally negotiate together.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Scope is KILLING DELTA MAINLINE PILOTS.

.

How do you figure?

 

[Indy319FA]

I just don't get it. Why, why, don't these mainline pilots demand that all flying in their brand be on the same seniority list in exchange for what the company is demanding in pay cuts. This issue is destroying (and largely has destroyed) the piloting profession. I've sit back and read the barbs between the Delta guys and the OH/EV guys and chuckled. Then I've watched some of these same (insert favorite legacy carrier here) pilots rip on the jetBlue and Southwest guys. Well (insert favorite legacy carrier here) guys you don't have all of your flying on one list. The jetBlue and Southwest guys do. Probably the fact that the people running these airlines are airline people first and not a bunch of gucci pants Wall Street jerks may have something to do with that. But the fact that legacy pilot groups have allowed the continued outsourcing of their flying since 1980 cannot be overlooked. The DL/Comair/ASA group had the perfect opportunty to squash this in its tracks, but they allowed their personal hatreds of other groups to override what could have been a breakthrough. Had the DL guys put the profession ahead of their territorial interests and forced the company to merge these lists all (including the company) would have benefited. Now you see where we are. Heck even the Mesa guys were smart enough to make whatever concessions were necessary to prevent the outsourcing of their flying (Freedom). Pretty sad when Mesa is willing to do more to defend the profession than their legacy partners. Of course I think the DL guys were nuts to allow the outsourcing of their flying in the early 80s just because they were too good to fly a 30 seat turboprop. Now we are all paying a price for it.

Management at all of these airlines have one objective. To outsource as much flying as possible (up to 150 seats eventually). Their vision is a Brand name, with all domestic flying outsourced and what we now think of as the legacy carrier flying larger narrowbodies and widebodies. I also get a laugh out of all this talk of getting concessions back. By the time any more contract talks start, the business will be in the beginning of the worst part of the business cycle, with another down trend forcasted to begin in the 2010-2012 timeframe. These same companies will be right back in bankruptcy, and what they don't get in scope now, they will get then. If pilot groups fail to put the profession ahead of parochial interests, then by 2015 you will see all flying less than 150 seats outsourced. Scope clauses have done nothing to protect mainline flying. They have been used as a management tool to outsource what should be mainline flying. These management teams at legacy carriers have continually outgamed the geniuses at ALPA. Its time for a change. Until ALPA stands up and forces mainline pilot groups to demand that as a condition of any agreement that all flying under one brand be on the same list, then cancers like Mesa (and Ornstein) will grow larger and stronger. It is very likely already too late. Until the pilot groups at the regionals and mainlines decide to see each other as equals and really work together, these blood sucking executives at major airlines will continue to win by pitting pilot groups against each other. By doing this they will make more money for themselves by expanding outsourcing and continuing the erosion in the flying profession.

Rant now over

 

[benjakes]

Indy Gets It!

Lee can be a classy individual, but a poor business man. I see it all the time.

 

[Ty Webb]

Speaking of "poor business-men" . . . . Lowecur hasn't been heard from since his ridiculous theory was disproven (that Wall Street had set Delta up to shut down).

Hey, Lowturd, which rock are you hiding under?

 

[Halo_RJdriver]

lowturd

Speaking of "poor business-men" . . . . Lowecur hasn't been heard from since his ridiculous theory was disproven (that Wall Street had set Delta up to shut down).

Hey, Lowturd, which rock are you hiding under?

turdbag has been in the regional board........the xjt / chitataco thread

 

[benjakes]

How do you figure?

Because it allows management to leverage different groups against each other, and that erodes your working conditons and wages.

Erase scope, embrace your RJ brethren, merge the lists, and then start telling management what you will charge THEM to fly the planes. TAKE CONTROL.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Because it allows management to leverage different groups against each other, and that erodes your working conditons and wages.

Erase scope, embrace your RJ brethren, merge the lists, and then start telling management what you will charge THEM to fly the planes. TAKE CONTROL.

What you're suggesting -- that all flying of Delta aircraft is to be performed by Delta pilots -- isa scope clause. You can't have a contract without one.

Getting rid of scope would allow management to allow anyone to fly anything.

 

[tico]

Because it allows management to leverage different groups against each other, and that erodes your working conditons and wages.

Erase scope, embrace your RJ brethren, merge the lists, and then start telling management what you will charge THEM to fly the planes. TAKE CONTROL.

How in the world can you merge the seniority lists of ComAir/ASA/Delta...ASA is owned by Skywest so those pilots are essentially Skywest pilots..ComAir is most likely going to be sold as well so those pilots will belong to what ever airline buys them......Had Delta merged all of the seniority lists then they could not have gotten out from under ASA and ComAir..just does not make any sense so why do it.......

 

[doh]

Yes, the FA gets it! The problem is we are now in no position to correct the mistakes. My moniker "doh" was meant as a multy faceted slap at all parties. The rjdc for date of hire, the legacies for "doh... we should have kept the flying", and management for show me the doh! Now the Delta pilots have to make a stand and not allow further outsourcing. When things get better, and they eventually will, they are going to have to face the tough task of moving their flying back to themselves. It will take longer than it took to let it go. I still believe it is possible to herd cats though, so they may prove me wrong!

 

[N2264J]

Re: Delta pilots, this is the man...

The rjdc for date of hire...

The RJDC or the Comair and ASA MECs never proposed date of hire in regard to a merger with Delta - ever. The Comair and ASA MECs did combine their lists date of hire.

When you repeat this lie, you become part of the problem.

 

[FDJ2]

The RJDC or the Comair and ASA MECs never proposed date of hire in regard to a merger with Delta - ever. The Comair and ASA MECs did combine their lists date of hire.

When you repeat this lie, you become part of the problem.

The RJDC also dropped any demand for seniority list integration from their lawsuit. Seniority list integration apparently isn't important enough to litigate for.

 

[doh]

Yawn, the slap stays in place for all parties. They all were looking for some advantage. And it will take years to fix the outsourcing debacle! Delta flying to Delta pilots says I.

 

[Turbojet]

That may be true, but we sure can try to change the future course. If we give in to scope, we will eventually be cutting our own jobs through outsourcing. The line must be made NOW in the sand. I think we will.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, you hit it right on with that statement. Too bad this was not the thinking of the Delta pilots in the early 90's when they let the barn door wide open with week scope. Thats when in July of 2000 Delta subs place orders for 500 RJ's including 25 70 seaters. The battle ground was then changed forever for every other major pilot group as they were now at a "competitive disadvantage". Give round one to management. Now with bigger and bigger "RJ's" on the market and large regionals like Skywest who's pilots agreed to fly them for nothing this round will be the final nail in the coffin if it is lost. If the flying is lost the pay will continue to spiral downward as subs bid for the flying with lower and lower pilot costs. Too many nonunion or startup regional airlines with 20 somthing pilots who cant wait to get their hands on an E190 or bigger jet. On the other hand, If you guys win you will get to fly the jets at current rates. These rates are so low that I am afraid many senior Delta pilots will choke when they think of the idea of having them in their contract...they would never want to have a new "Delta Dot" that would begin to pull down their widebody rates.

Lose this round of scope and jobs will continue to go away forever. Win and your pay will stay low for sometime but at least you keep jobs at mainline.

Good luck Delta dudes....this time you guys need to draw a huge line and stop the downward spiral.

TJ

 

[doh]

Actually, the only reason to draw that line in the sand instead of concrete should be to move it to all jets ayepc (at your earliest possible covenience)!