Delta Pilots Begin Vote

[General Lee]

GEN

16 747-400s, not 14. Rumor is we might get 4 or 5 more at a steal because Boeing owes NWA money for the 787 delays....

I hope you (we) do. The more of those, the more people being paid the highest wages. We supposedly have 23 "rolling" options for the 777LRs, which have 18 month delivery options. So, 18 months before we want them, we exercise the options and Boeing delivers them. I think we have that ability so we don't have to put money down before hand. That is one thing we did NOT lose with Boeing during our BK proceedings. I think they knew we were going to order more from them.

Also, as I stated in a previous post, our work rules about 2 Captains and 2 FOs per ultra long haul flight (over 12 hours) will help you guys out a lot (up from your current rule with 1 Captain and 3 FOs per flight). You should see a lot of upward movement as a result.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[clippyrip]

............

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Get off of the future retirements. You have them and then DAL has them. We actually have a lot more in the next ten than you had in the previous ten. There is no way you will get seniority based on future projections. If you do achieve that, it is because DALPA gave it up.

 

[jetflier]

Not really. First, i voted yes, and i hope that it never comes to fruition.

Next, this is merely just a step in the process. it protects us from an unreasonable NWA group who have this history of overplaying their hand. A joint contract is going to be the next step. That has been agreed upon. I hope we knock it out of the park. If one side or another decides that it is going to play stalemate, we get a token.

Finally, you seem to have the confidence that the SLI is going to work out "in your favor". It IS genius to have the joint contract take care of initially, because then it won't turn into an AWA/USAir fiasco where the combination gets held hostage because one group does not like the looks of the list.

What is being set up here is just the opposite of what you say. You are misinterpreting the facts--spinning if you will. You are setting yourself up for a fall.

Hey Puff,

You must agree that DAL should be able to hire 1000 pilots off the street, and put them ahead of the bottom NWA pilots,...'cause that's what yaall proposing to do !

As far as I can tell, there's been no imbreeding in Minnesota, ... so the proposal from Yaals ain't no good ! (trying to speak the langauge)

 

[clippyrip]

Get off of the future retirements. You have them and then DAL has them.

It is not something we are going to get over. You had your big run on retirements and we want ours. The dynamic list takes care of that on both sides. Problem is that Moak needs to save face and he will not sign off on SLI. He'll let it go to arbitration to avoid blame. Giving 1000 pilots seniority that have not been hired yet is ridiculous and will get thrown out by an arbitrator.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Clippy, jetflyer, et. al.

We've not heard this 1,000 yet to be hired pilots ahead of NWA pilots. That does not sound like a D ALPA position.

That sounds like an adjustment for 1,000 to 2,000 dynamic slots for pilots on the property that NWA wants credit for. So can you explain why you are trying to blame Delta for a NWA position?

I do not think there should be any phantom anything, no phantom jets, no phantom retirements. In previous arbitrations the phantom concepts haven't trumped real seniority holding real equipment in the here and now.

I don't want to hear about any slots until you need this guy to talk to the pilot who did the flying....

http://www.johnedward.net/JOHN_EDWARD_2008/JE_home.html

 

[~~~^~~~]

As the surviving MEC the D ALPA side has to be more reasonable, don't they? After all, they will eventually represent all the pilots and need the support of all the pilots.... They have to build.

 

[nwaredtail]

Clippy, jetflyer, et. al.

We've not heard this 1,000 yet to be hired pilots ahead of NWA pilots. That does not sound like a D ALPA position.

We saw the proposal, you have not. I wonder why DALPA would not show there own pilots their offers? Why is Moak agreeing to arbitration? Because he knows that he will not be able to deliver on his promise and blaming an arbitrator will save face.

That sounds like an adjustment for 1,000 to 2,000 dynamic slots for pilots on the property that NWA wants credit for. So can you explain why you are trying to blame Delta for a NWA position?

Never happened. We just don't want DALPA pilots to gain at the expense of NWA pilots. You obviously have no problem with that.

 

[PuffDriver]

Hey Puff,

You must agree that DAL should be able to hire 1000 pilots off the street, and put them ahead of the bottom NWA pilots,...'cause that's what yaall proposing to do !

As far as I can tell, there's been no imbreeding in Minnesota, ... so the proposal from Yaals ain't no good ! (trying to speak the langauge)

I know that your MEC is n a face saving mission, but that doesn't mean that everything that they say is true, or that you are smart enough to understand what a proposal really is. Go ahead and get yourself spun up about it. It will go to arbitration and the list will be the list. Go ahead and go for your future retirements in the single company and we will go for the phantom slots.

Oh, and the letter from the Pan Am guy? I have yet to fly with an ex pan am who wasn't pissed off at the world. Before my time, so go cry to somebody else.

Let me ask you this, if the arbitrator gives straight relative position without ANY DYNAMIC movement in the list, are you going to cry and bitch and moan for the rest of your career?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Clippy, jetflyer, et. al.

We've not heard this 1,000 yet to be hired pilots ahead of NWA pilots. That does not sound like a D ALPA position.

We saw the proposal, you have not. I wonder why DALPA would not show there own pilots their offers? Why is Moak agreeing to arbitration?

First, why can't some of you learn to quote?

Second, I am not sure you understand the context of the "supposal." That was not what we were told the meger committee's position was. This does sound a lot like the NWA position, which the NWA refused after they saw the results of their ratios. Showing these "supposals" to line pilots gives a skewed view of negotiations and harms the end process in as much as you come to see your team mates as your enemies.

Third, Moak has not promised much. Per ALPA merger policy we are going to arbitration unless we are smart enough to reach a negotiated resolution before then. Moak (IMHO) has been very professional. In most corners, he is respected.

From the bottom the effect of a Delta retirement, or a NWA retirement is the same to me. Either way what matters most to us is having a company that makes a profit and will be around as this industry endures yet another shake out.

 

[FDJ2]

Giving 1000 pilots seniority that have not been hired yet is ridiculous and will get thrown out by an arbitrator.

Something else that will be thrown out is a dynamic list. Have you ever seen an arbitrator award a dynamic list.

No one knows for sure what an arbitrator will decide, however, the latest award based on ALPA merger policy indicates a non dynamic list based on relative positions for each equivalent category, with a possible bias thrown in for pay rates.

Delta pilots will probably get credit for having significantly more wide bodied flying and a richer contract as well as bringing a contract to the merger that will require additional pilots in NWA categories once DAL contract provisions are adopted.

However, nothing is guaranteed if it goes to arbitration. A negotiated result is far superior. DALPA has a history of negotiated results, unfortunately NWALPA prefers turning the process over to an arbitrator to decide and to take responsibility for the result.

 

[General Lee]

It is not something we are going to get over. You had your big run on retirements and we want ours. The dynamic list takes care of that on both sides. Problem is that Moak needs to save face and he will not sign off on SLI. He'll let it go to arbitration to avoid blame. Giving 1000 pilots seniority that have not been hired yet is ridiculous and will get thrown out by an arbitrator.

We had our large run of retirements, and then parked all of our MD11s, 767-200s, 737-200s, and 737-300s. How about we fence off all of your DC9s and 742s to just your pilots, and then let you retire those and the pilots with them. That would be fair, right? That is what happened to us. It's hard to fight with history.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

]Delta pilots will probably get credit for having significantly more wide bodied flying and a richer contract as well as bringing a contract to the merger that will require additional pilots in NWA categories once DAL contract provisions are adopted.

Let's see, USAir had more widebody flying, a richer contract and a contract that required more pilots, yet the arbitrator went against their unreasonable offer that totally favored the USAir group.

Excellent logic. Too easy.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Let's see, USAir had more widebody flying, a richer contract and a contract that required more pilots, yet the arbitrator went against their unreasonable offer that totally favored the USAir group.

Excellent logic. Too easy.

Not at all. Allow me to submit the review of the Nicolau arbitration prepared by the UAL MEC for their pilots.

In his decision, Arbitrator Nicolau references a direct quote from his earlier decision in the Federal Express / Flying Tigers seniority integration. He states again, that:

“There are four basic lessons to be learned from those submissions;
· that each case turns on its own facts
· that the objective is to make the integration fair and equitable
· that the proposals advanced by those in contest rarely meet that standard
· and that the end result, no matter how crafted, never commands universal acceptance.”

Another area of interest in the decision is the use of a “no-growth” philosophy in constructing the list. Again, quoting from the decision, “In the exercise of caution, we have also constructed the list on a no-growth basis, using the fleet as it existed on January 1, 2007, and giving no weight to pre-merger orders except to the extent that any such additions were in place as of January 1, 2007. Our judgment as to the fleet is based, not on asserted expectations as both sides urged, but on reality. Particularly in this day and age, with airline instability a way of life, it makes little sense to rely on pre-merger projections...."

The Board also found that, “it cannot be disputed that there were differences in the financial condition of both carriers and that US Airways was the weaker. This necessarily means that career expectations differed and that US Airways pilots had more to gain from the merger than their new colleagues.”

The final award from the Board utilizes a ratio method that attempts to address all of the aspects of ALPA Merger Policy. Specifically, the top 517 positions on the combined seniority list were reserved for US Airways pilots due to their unique, international widebody flying positions that did not exist at America West. The bottom of the list places the most senior US Airways furloughee on May 19, 2005 just below all active pre-merger pilots from both airlines. The objective was to merge active pilots with active pilots.

You can read what you want into those comments, but I believe it strongly supports status quo. The very definition of status quo is same seat, same relative seniority, same equipment. If status quo is the case, then an arbitration ruling would be more one sided in favor of Delta than anything that Delta's Merger Committee has proposed thus far.

 

[rudder]

Something else that will be thrown out is a dynamic list. Have you ever seen an arbitrator award a dynamic list.

Not necessarily. The arbitrator will resolve thru med or arb the outstanding issues between the parties.

If all matters are outstanding, then the arbitrator will resolve all. However, if the parties are agreed on dynamic seniority but are not agreed on the actual mechanics or ratios, then that narrow matter alone can be submitted to the arbitator with concurrence of both parties.

If you submit to an arbitrator 'all-or-nothing' then that exposes you to achieving 'all' or perhaps 'nothing'.

 

[FDJ2]

Let's see, USAir had more widebody flying, a richer contract and a contract that required more pilots, yet the arbitrator went against their unreasonable offer that totally favored the USAir group.

Excellent logic. Too easy.

AWA had higher pay rates, so you are wrong about the "richer" contract, DAL has significantly higher pay rates, even more so with LOA19.

AAA got credit for having wide bodied equipment when 517 of their pilots were stapled on the top of the list. Neither contract had much difference in work rules and manning, as opposed to the the additional 300+ pilots that would be required if DAL work rules were implemented, so there's no real correlation there.

However, what we did see was credit given for more wide bodied flying, and DAL has significantly more wide bodied equipment with more 777s on the way, and we also saw a ratioed integration between equivalent categories. This integration methodology would give DAL pilots better than relative seniority due to DAL having significantly more wide bodied aircraft and since there is no equivalent to the second officer and DC-9 first officer positions, I suspect they'll be at the bottom of the list.

 

[FDJ2]

If all matters are outstanding, then the arbitrator will resolve all.

At this time all matters are outstanding.

Also, there has never been an award that I am aware of that has a dynamic list. If you know of one, I'd be interested in knowing more about it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

FDJ2:

Thanks.

For some reason the NWA pilots seem to think that DALPA will tie its hands and conceede to the relative seniority position (a win for the NWA pilots) while allowing arbitration to proceed to determine how much more the NW pilots are going to get with their dynamic seniority concept (going from win to windfall).

That is not going to happen. Having both sides walk up brandishing staplers is a more likely scenario.

Just because DALPA has been rational and fair up to this point (and will continue to be in negotiations) should not be interpreted as stipulating to anything once the gloves come off.

If status quo prevails (as I think it will) then the NWA MEC has helped the junior Delta pilots by not accepting the concessionary offer the D ALPA Merger Committee made during their effort to get a deal.

JMHO.

 

[800Dog]

Voted no. Will pass 74/26!

 

[FDJ2]

Voted no. Will pass 74/26!

Voted yes for the first time in a long time.