WhiteCloud
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Delta pay cuts not enough ?
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100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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Posted by the General:
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We understand your pain, but a 22% paycut for us would hurt a lot more than a 5% paycut for you.
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Can you explain what you meant by this?
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We understand your pain, but a 22% paycut for us would hurt a lot more than a 5% paycut for you.
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Can you explain what you meant by this?
General Lee
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100LL...again,
Almost everyone has been affected by 9-11 and the associated aftermath, you included. We all are taking a hit, some worse than others. My point was that even a small percentage could help. We are probably going to take a big hit, which is wrong if NOBODY ELSE takes a hit at this company.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Almost everyone has been affected by 9-11 and the associated aftermath, you included. We all are taking a hit, some worse than others. My point was that even a small percentage could help. We are probably going to take a big hit, which is wrong if NOBODY ELSE takes a hit at this company.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Freight Dog
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It's ironic...
Isn't it ironic that Sleepy, 100LL and other Comair & ASA guys express their interest in joining Delta via flow-through, etc. when times are good (in essence unify the entire operation) and THEN claim that they should not be held to wage cuts (to the benefit of the overall company) when the going gets bad? It's selective association... It is completely obvious.
Flip Flop. Flip Flop. Flip Flop............ I am not a Delta pilot - but I think this issue demonstrates a complete lack of teamwork or accountability. Freight Dog is right - management would rather have all groups pitted against each other - distract everyone from their own misdeeds... That is why the Delta pilot union is the ONLY LABOR GROUP TARGETED FOR PAY CUTS - to dissuade the other groups from unionizing. It is not fair and the DALPA people will fight it.
Isn't it ironic that Sleepy, 100LL and other Comair & ASA guys express their interest in joining Delta via flow-through, etc. when times are good (in essence unify the entire operation) and THEN claim that they should not be held to wage cuts (to the benefit of the overall company) when the going gets bad? It's selective association... It is completely obvious.
Flip Flop. Flip Flop. Flip Flop............ I am not a Delta pilot - but I think this issue demonstrates a complete lack of teamwork or accountability. Freight Dog is right - management would rather have all groups pitted against each other - distract everyone from their own misdeeds... That is why the Delta pilot union is the ONLY LABOR GROUP TARGETED FOR PAY CUTS - to dissuade the other groups from unionizing. It is not fair and the DALPA people will fight it.
Re: It's ironic...
Heavy Set,
I do not want to join DAL through any flow-through type scheme. If DAL ever hires again I will apply just like everybody else (if I still want to work there 7 or 8 years from now). I would like our MEC to try and get preferential interviews with DAL for our pilots (we don't need the DAL MEC to do that, we should do it ourselves). When ASA starts losing money, I will consider pay cuts, if they are fair and are really needed. Again, this is pointless. The DAL pilots and Executives are the only two groups on the DAL property that are overpaid relative to their peers in the airline industry.
Heavy Set said:
Heavy Set,
I do not want to join DAL through any flow-through type scheme. If DAL ever hires again I will apply just like everybody else (if I still want to work there 7 or 8 years from now). I would like our MEC to try and get preferential interviews with DAL for our pilots (we don't need the DAL MEC to do that, we should do it ourselves). When ASA starts losing money, I will consider pay cuts, if they are fair and are really needed. Again, this is pointless. The DAL pilots and Executives are the only two groups on the DAL property that are overpaid relative to their peers in the airline industry.
Sleepy,
Would you consider Mesa and Chataqua to be ASA's peers in the regional industry? If so, then perhaps ASA/Comair pilots are overpaid vs. their peers - right? I doubt you would agree or like that comparison - but it is valid.
In any case, this argument appears to be going around and around. My main point - it is unfair to target one employee group for wage cuts when every group should contribute - even if it is a small amount based on a WEIGHTED percentage. As a unified company, all groups should share the pain - otherwise management wins and is able to pit one group against another...
Just my 2 cents...
Would you consider Mesa and Chataqua to be ASA's peers in the regional industry? If so, then perhaps ASA/Comair pilots are overpaid vs. their peers - right? I doubt you would agree or like that comparison - but it is valid.
In any case, this argument appears to be going around and around. My main point - it is unfair to target one employee group for wage cuts when every group should contribute - even if it is a small amount based on a WEIGHTED percentage. As a unified company, all groups should share the pain - otherwise management wins and is able to pit one group against another...
Just my 2 cents...
Heavy Set said:
Again, most ASA pilots that I know don't want anything from the DAL pilot group (except to be left alone). I don't consider Chit or Mesa to be our peers. Our peers are the other WO airlines like Comair, AE, the WO's at NWA, and Horizon. We are not paid a whole lot better than the Chit pilots right now on same seat aircraft. I'm pretty sure that our work rules are better though.
I'm not saying that your pilot group should take the concessions that DAL wants. All I'm saying is that it will be hard for you not to given what your peers at AAA, U, and AMR have done. If you don't take the concessions, DAL will go the BK route, then we will all be giving up something. If you want the rest of the DAL and WO employees to give concessions send the company into BK. But, expect to take the blame in the press.
If you DAL guys want to have any say in the ASA pilots's careers then I suggest you file a PID. Maybe you have learned from your last mistake in blocking our PID.
Last edited:
General Lee
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Sleepy,
So, you guys want to be left alone when the hiring resumes in 3-4 years? No? Wait, you do? You don't? I'm lost. You guys might want to check the headlines, things seem to be getting better. We are having huge retirements due to the great GATT rate for May and June, and European traffic seems to be returning. Eventually we will be recalling our furloughs, and then we will eventually start to hire again. Those of you who are not Comair pilots will have an opportunity to possibly interview. (It might take 3-4 years total to get back our furloughs, but they will return) At that time you might want our pay rates to still be on the high side. Your pay rates are sort of based off of our base line, and going over to Delta may be that much more profitable for you. The best advice I could give your pilots at ASA is to stick by our pilots. That will get you the first interviews when our guys come back, and get you in front of the next wave.
Bye Bye--General Lee
So, you guys want to be left alone when the hiring resumes in 3-4 years? No? Wait, you do? You don't? I'm lost. You guys might want to check the headlines, things seem to be getting better. We are having huge retirements due to the great GATT rate for May and June, and European traffic seems to be returning. Eventually we will be recalling our furloughs, and then we will eventually start to hire again. Those of you who are not Comair pilots will have an opportunity to possibly interview. (It might take 3-4 years total to get back our furloughs, but they will return) At that time you might want our pay rates to still be on the high side. Your pay rates are sort of based off of our base line, and going over to Delta may be that much more profitable for you. The best advice I could give your pilots at ASA is to stick by our pilots. That will get you the first interviews when our guys come back, and get you in front of the next wave.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Re: It's ironic...
What is really completely obvious is that you are not familiar with the situation. If your were, then you would know that the Comair pilots have consistently and repeatedly indicated that they have no interest in a "flow-through" with Delta for nearly ten (10) years. ASA has also indicated, for at least 5 years, that they too are not interested in flow-through. Do not assume that because some regional pilots have swallowed the flow through scam, that all regional pilots have done so. Flow-through that is in any way similar to the other scams out there is of NO VALUE to us. Those who wish to go to Delta are welcome to apply. We aren't going to make our entire pilot group furlough fodder for the Delta pilots so that a handful of senior pilots can flow anywhere.
Additionally, if you were a Delta pilot then you would know that it is not ASA & CMR pilots that switch anything when the going gets bad. It is Delta pilots that are doing that. When times were good the Delta pilots are the ones that told us we are "separate and they wanted no part of us. Now that times are bad it is the Delta pilots that are calling us "family" and suggesting we should share their problems. It is they that are the turncoats my friend, not Comair or ASA. The Flip-Flop shoes are on the feet of Delta pilots.
Freight Dog isn't right and has never understood the problems between the pilot groups in the Delta System. Yes, we are pitted against each other by management. We are also pitted against each other because that is how the DMEC and ALPA have wanted it. We have never been servants of the Delta pilot group and have no plans to be. Things are the way they are because that is what they wanted, and they got it. If they wanted teamwork, they could get that too, but they do not.
What they do want is the right to control us now and in the future and to make our jobs, our lives and our future dependent upon their whims. That is not going to happen if there is anything we can do to prevent it.
The "DALPA" people can fight whatever they want. What they can't do is use us as cannon fodder in the process. We, will fight that. "All is fair in both love and war." You can form your own opinion as to which of the two this is.
In the very best of times, the Delta pilots decided that Comair and ASA were not Delta employees and NOT a part of Delta. Now suddenly in bad times, we have become "family"? You gotta be kidding.
Heavy Set said:
What is really completely obvious is that you are not familiar with the situation. If your were, then you would know that the Comair pilots have consistently and repeatedly indicated that they have no interest in a "flow-through" with Delta for nearly ten (10) years. ASA has also indicated, for at least 5 years, that they too are not interested in flow-through. Do not assume that because some regional pilots have swallowed the flow through scam, that all regional pilots have done so. Flow-through that is in any way similar to the other scams out there is of NO VALUE to us. Those who wish to go to Delta are welcome to apply. We aren't going to make our entire pilot group furlough fodder for the Delta pilots so that a handful of senior pilots can flow anywhere.
Additionally, if you were a Delta pilot then you would know that it is not ASA & CMR pilots that switch anything when the going gets bad. It is Delta pilots that are doing that. When times were good the Delta pilots are the ones that told us we are "separate and they wanted no part of us. Now that times are bad it is the Delta pilots that are calling us "family" and suggesting we should share their problems. It is they that are the turncoats my friend, not Comair or ASA. The Flip-Flop shoes are on the feet of Delta pilots.
Freight Dog isn't right and has never understood the problems between the pilot groups in the Delta System. Yes, we are pitted against each other by management. We are also pitted against each other because that is how the DMEC and ALPA have wanted it. We have never been servants of the Delta pilot group and have no plans to be. Things are the way they are because that is what they wanted, and they got it. If they wanted teamwork, they could get that too, but they do not.
What they do want is the right to control us now and in the future and to make our jobs, our lives and our future dependent upon their whims. That is not going to happen if there is anything we can do to prevent it.
The "DALPA" people can fight whatever they want. What they can't do is use us as cannon fodder in the process. We, will fight that. "All is fair in both love and war." You can form your own opinion as to which of the two this is.
In the very best of times, the Delta pilots decided that Comair and ASA were not Delta employees and NOT a part of Delta. Now suddenly in bad times, we have become "family"? You gotta be kidding.
General Lee said:Sleepy,
So, you guys want to be left alone when the hiring resumes in 3-4 years? No? Wait, you do? You don't? I'm lost. You guys might want to check the headlines, things seem to be getting better. We are having huge retirements due to the great GATT rate for May and June, and European traffic seems to be returning. Eventually we will be recalling our furloughs, and then we will eventually start to hire again. Those of you who are not Comair pilots will have an opportunity to possibly interview. (It might take 3-4 years total to get back our furloughs, but they will return) At that time you might want our pay rates to still be on the high side. Your pay rates are sort of based off of our base line, and going over to Delta may be that much more profitable for you. The best advice I could give your pilots at ASA is to stick by our pilots. That will get you the first interviews when our guys come back, and get you in front of the next wave.
Bye Bye--General Lee
General,
I don't know how long it will take to get your pilots all back on line. If it happened tomorrow it would be fine with me. I don't wish anything bad on your pilot group. I have friends that fly for your airline.
I just don't understand you. You never answered my questions about the PID. You all had the chance to controll every ASA and Comair pilot by approving the PID, but you turned it down. Now you want to dictate a pay cut for us when we are seperate companies. If you want to dictate things at ASA and Comair, then file a PID.
If I want to fly for DAL I will re-apply. I was close to getting an interview when everything when to s&*%. Flow-through is not something I am interested in, they don't seem to do much for the regional pilots. By the time you do hire again I might not want to take the risk of being on the bottom of your list.
What would you like the ASA pilots to do for your furloughed pilots?
General,
I hope your furloughed pilots will be recalled long before 3-4 years; all of them. I hope Delta will recover from the downturn and become the most successful airline in the business. I hope you will be able to hire lots of new pilots in the not to distant future. I want your pay rates to be as high as you can keep them, your benefits the best, your retirement plans retained and every other good thing that can happen to you all. I hope that any concessins you may have to make will be as little as possible and only last for a short time. In short, I wish you only the best.
I would also like it if you were able to understand that you do not control hiring at Delta Air Lines now and you will not control it in the future. That wishful thinking may make you "feel good", but it is only a wish. Save that rhetoric for the uninitiated.
I would like it most of all if you stopped your repeated threats, stopped your efforts to control us, stopped your efforst to take or reduce our flying, stopped trying to use us as bargaining chips and stopped feeding the animosity cannon. We are already divided and I wish you could learn that the "division" is not going to permit you to conquer anything from us. We will not allow that.
Finally, if the moon was made of green cheese and if I had a "wish" I would join sleepy in hoping that you would just leave us alone. Mind your own store and let us mind ours. Then we can all live happily ever after. Like sleepy said, if your Delta guys want to control the careers of Comair and ASA pilots, file a PID. I would add to that, that if you do, then we can have the chance to argue that we are not operationally integrated and it should not happen.
Best wishes.
I hope your furloughed pilots will be recalled long before 3-4 years; all of them. I hope Delta will recover from the downturn and become the most successful airline in the business. I hope you will be able to hire lots of new pilots in the not to distant future. I want your pay rates to be as high as you can keep them, your benefits the best, your retirement plans retained and every other good thing that can happen to you all. I hope that any concessins you may have to make will be as little as possible and only last for a short time. In short, I wish you only the best.
I would also like it if you were able to understand that you do not control hiring at Delta Air Lines now and you will not control it in the future. That wishful thinking may make you "feel good", but it is only a wish. Save that rhetoric for the uninitiated.
I would like it most of all if you stopped your repeated threats, stopped your efforts to control us, stopped your efforst to take or reduce our flying, stopped trying to use us as bargaining chips and stopped feeding the animosity cannon. We are already divided and I wish you could learn that the "division" is not going to permit you to conquer anything from us. We will not allow that.
Finally, if the moon was made of green cheese and if I had a "wish" I would join sleepy in hoping that you would just leave us alone. Mind your own store and let us mind ours. Then we can all live happily ever after. Like sleepy said, if your Delta guys want to control the careers of Comair and ASA pilots, file a PID. I would add to that, that if you do, then we can have the chance to argue that we are not operationally integrated and it should not happen.
Best wishes.
General Lee said:Sleepy,
So, you guys want to be left alone when the hiring resumes in 3-4 years? No? Wait, you do? You don't? I'm lost. You guys might want to check the headlines, things seem to be getting better. We are having huge retirements due to the great GATT rate for May and June, and European traffic seems to be returning. Eventually we will be recalling our furloughs, and then we will eventually start to hire again. Those of you who are not Comair pilots will have an opportunity to possibly interview. (It might take 3-4 years total to get back our furloughs, but they will return) At that time you might want our pay rates to still be on the high side. Your pay rates are sort of based off of our base line, and going over to Delta may be that much more profitable for you. The best advice I could give your pilots at ASA is to stick by our pilots. That will get you the first interviews when our guys come back, and get you in front of the next wave.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Forum = Free Speech - right?
Surplus 1,
My impression is that the General and other Delta pilots don't want to necessarily "control" the ASA/Comair careers - they just want to PROTECT their own careers and ensure that the furloughees are back flying as soon as possible. That's all.
Yes, General Lee can be overly sarcastic and times, but he frequently focuses on the furloughee situation - that is not a bad thing. Comair and ASA continue to grow and add to their route structure (e.g, Salt Lake and Dallas) while Delta furloughs more mainline pilots - shouldn't the General and others be concerned about the situation? Do they have a right to express their opinions on an open forum? Yes.
What if your own situation mirrored General Lee's situation. Let's say that Chit-Talk and Mesa started to encroach on your system because of their much lower operating cost structures - and Comair/ASA pilots were furloughed with no clear timetable for their return... How would you feel? How did you feel when Chit-Talk took over Orlando? I guess you weren't upset in the slightest... I suppose there is zero ill-will between the two pilot groups. If you were furloughed, you would likely be happy that someone like the General is defending you and attempting to communicate the problem to other pilots.
Remember, if you don't like the message, you don't have to get on this forum - you can stick to the Regionals forum. The General might be sarcastic, but he is often more logical and vehement than most people on these boards.... Most of his messages revolve around the furloughees - so that people don't forget about them...
Surplus 1, if I were you, I would be less concerned about what the Delta pilots are doing and more concerned about the Chit-Talk pilots - watch your back. Now YOU can relate to how the Delta pilots feel...
Cheers
Surplus 1,
My impression is that the General and other Delta pilots don't want to necessarily "control" the ASA/Comair careers - they just want to PROTECT their own careers and ensure that the furloughees are back flying as soon as possible. That's all.
Yes, General Lee can be overly sarcastic and times, but he frequently focuses on the furloughee situation - that is not a bad thing. Comair and ASA continue to grow and add to their route structure (e.g, Salt Lake and Dallas) while Delta furloughs more mainline pilots - shouldn't the General and others be concerned about the situation? Do they have a right to express their opinions on an open forum? Yes.
What if your own situation mirrored General Lee's situation. Let's say that Chit-Talk and Mesa started to encroach on your system because of their much lower operating cost structures - and Comair/ASA pilots were furloughed with no clear timetable for their return... How would you feel? How did you feel when Chit-Talk took over Orlando? I guess you weren't upset in the slightest... I suppose there is zero ill-will between the two pilot groups. If you were furloughed, you would likely be happy that someone like the General is defending you and attempting to communicate the problem to other pilots.
Remember, if you don't like the message, you don't have to get on this forum - you can stick to the Regionals forum. The General might be sarcastic, but he is often more logical and vehement than most people on these boards.... Most of his messages revolve around the furloughees - so that people don't forget about them...
Surplus 1, if I were you, I would be less concerned about what the Delta pilots are doing and more concerned about the Chit-Talk pilots - watch your back. Now YOU can relate to how the Delta pilots feel...
Cheers
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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Lotsa assumin' goin' on here...
I have never even applied for a position at Comair, ASA, or Delta at any time. Nor would I ever have.
I have the point of view of a outside observer who is sympathetic to both side, but admittedly biased to the regional pilot's viewpoint.
To the General - This is what I (perhaps mistakenly) saw in your post:
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We understand your pain, but a 22% paycut for us would hurt a lot more than a 5% paycut for you
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Translation: A 22% cut of my 100K+ salary would leave me worse off than a 5% cut of you $30K salary.
Simpler translation: "Let them eat cake"
The parallels to Versailles are too good to pass up.
My apologies if this is not what you meant, but it SURE came across that way.
I have never even applied for a position at Comair, ASA, or Delta at any time. Nor would I ever have.
I have the point of view of a outside observer who is sympathetic to both side, but admittedly biased to the regional pilot's viewpoint.
To the General - This is what I (perhaps mistakenly) saw in your post:
-------------------------------------------
We understand your pain, but a 22% paycut for us would hurt a lot more than a 5% paycut for you
-------------------------------------------
Translation: A 22% cut of my 100K+ salary would leave me worse off than a 5% cut of you $30K salary.
Simpler translation: "Let them eat cake"
The parallels to Versailles are too good to pass up.
My apologies if this is not what you meant, but it SURE came across that way.
Freight Dog
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Surplus,
I may not have the full grasp of the situation at Delta, but if it looks like sh*t, smells like sh*t, it's gotta be sh*t...
Management IS indeed laughing their collective asses off all the way to the bank because the political climate allows them to abrogate their contracts with labor. It is a rather simple thing that you drag into a 2-day reading project. All this bickering is playing right into their hands.
On the final note... if Delta Air Lines was to go bankrupt, would your contract also not be on the chopping block?
I may not have the full grasp of the situation at Delta, but if it looks like sh*t, smells like sh*t, it's gotta be sh*t...
Management IS indeed laughing their collective asses off all the way to the bank because the political climate allows them to abrogate their contracts with labor. It is a rather simple thing that you drag into a 2-day reading project. All this bickering is playing right into their hands.
On the final note... if Delta Air Lines was to go bankrupt, would your contract also not be on the chopping block?
Sleepy,
You demonstrate that you are a reasonable man... I won't speak for him, but I am sure the General will agree so long as:
1. Comair gives preferential hiring to Delta furloughees until they are called back (just future jobs - no displacement of current Comair pilots at all...). ASA did it - why can't Comair? C'mon...
2. Comair pilots agree to a "weighted" wage reduction IF Delta pilots are forced to give back (share some of the pain - even if only a small contribution...)
3. Comair pilots agree that teamwork is the answer and demonstrate (at least verbally) that working together is better than working apart - show support like the Delta mainline guys did during your strike...
See, isn't that easy? Although I am not a Delta pilot, I can see that you guys can, indeed, come to positive terms.
Cheers
You demonstrate that you are a reasonable man... I won't speak for him, but I am sure the General will agree so long as:
1. Comair gives preferential hiring to Delta furloughees until they are called back (just future jobs - no displacement of current Comair pilots at all...). ASA did it - why can't Comair? C'mon...
2. Comair pilots agree to a "weighted" wage reduction IF Delta pilots are forced to give back (share some of the pain - even if only a small contribution...)
3. Comair pilots agree that teamwork is the answer and demonstrate (at least verbally) that working together is better than working apart - show support like the Delta mainline guys did during your strike...
See, isn't that easy? Although I am not a Delta pilot, I can see that you guys can, indeed, come to positive terms.
Cheers
Heavy Set said:
I don't know why Comair won't hire your furloughed pilots. I think it was a bad move on their part, but we all know that our leaders sometimes have their own agenda.
Instead of doing all of the things that you listed, why don't we all three get together and put all DAL flying in the hands of a combined ASA, Comair, and DAL. That gets rid of the whipsaw, gets your guys back to work right away, and gives us job security. DAL gets reasonable rates for the RJ, unlimited smaller aircraft, and pay concessions needed to attract investment and avoid BK. If you are going to give concessions, you might as well get all of the flying back under the control of one MEC.
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