Delta offers furloughs

[FBN0223]

See, I see it as a little different. I blame SWAPA for allowing the company to charge each new pilot hire for a type, thus lowering the cost to the company, I then see a pilot group that prior to the CH11 era got paid a lot less than we did. I saw a well managed company (SWA) undercutting everyone else and their pilots willing participants in lowering their costs and as a result no one could compete. This resulted in SWAPA pilot being better paid today, and them earning the "Darling of the Industry" title, but the reality is that they undercut every other pilot group out there. It seems everyone's memory is so short that they forget the way it was ten years ago.

Much of the reason we are where we are today, is because of SWA(SWAPA's) willingness to cut the piloting trade off at the knees for their own gain.

Not a popular position, but one that needs to be stated.

Southwest just has a different strategy and it has worked well. Part of that strategy is hire pilots who want to be there and let them fly ALL of your airplanes.

The Delta Airlines product, in many aspects, is poor because it's simply not Delta Airlines. Instead it's Skywest, Compass, Shuttle America, Pinnacle, Mesaba, ASA or someone else. In many cases, these pilots and cabin crews are flying the Delta system one day and the United system the next which leads to an inconsistent and sometimes poor service for our customers.

When you outsource customer service the product suffers, it's that simple.

 

[General Lee]

Southwest just has a different strategy and it has worked well. Part of that strategy is hire pilots who want to be there and let them fly ALL of your airplanes.

The Delta Airlines product, in many aspects, is poor because it's simply not Delta Airlines. Instead it's Skywest, Compass, Shuttle America, Pinnacle, Mesaba, ASA or someone else. In many cases, these pilots and cabin crews are flying the Delta system one day and the United system the next which leads to an inconsistent and sometimes poor service for our customers.

When you outsource customer service the product suffers, it's that simple.

FBN,

I know you aren't happy about the RJ situtation, nobody really is except lifers at DCI. Here is an article that might make you feel better:



http://www.centreforaviation.com/new...gs-calls/page1


It's about Delta putting the squeeze on DCI carriers. Yes, there is still a problem, and even with Comair shrinking to 44 total planes, and 50 seaters leaving the fleet quickly. Yes, 12 more E170s are coming aboard, almost up to the cap or limit on those planes. With the DPA gaining strength, maybe ALPA will get the hint and make sure mainline concerns are expressed during upcoming negotiations. I don't see any more 70 or 76 seaters being allotted, and I hope UNICAL gets some tighter scope and maybe takes some back. I hope for the same here, and without BK looming, it will be a priority. As far as SWA payrates and benefits, thanks to Airtran getting the same, it will be a major target for us coming up. It helps when our primary ATL competition over the years gets the same as SWA.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

FBN;
That is all well and good, but do you remember when that 643 aircraft RJ order was made by DAL. Do you remember who they were trying to compete with? Do you recall that DAL, a legacy was trying to slash costs so that they could deal with this cancer, SWA.

When a group is willing to do more work for less money, and pay for their training, the industry as a whole suffers. Now look at the last 12-15 years and realize that since that time, SWA has been growing and your airline has been suffering the effects of pilots and employees in general being willing to do "your" work for less than you. It trickled down to most Legacy pilots in the CH11 era, but it started with a little airline from Texas that cherry picked routes of legacies that had Regulation Era costs.

It is good for the consumer, and good for the SWAPA pilots, but it has not been good for the rest of the industry. All legacy pilots made mistakes by selling scope, and to date SWA has not needed it. As their debt increases, the pay model will start to morph over there, or management will want some "feeder" support. In the end it will be the tail wagging the dog. Our selling of scope, and miserable contract will ultimately effect pilots at SWAPA because CH11 made us more efficient and undercut them. They better hope or costs rise, because if they do not, our compensation levels will cause theirs to stagnate more than they already have.

 

[Tanker Clown]

Tanker: Run along, its time for the colonel's afternoon coffee. You know how he gets when he doesn't get his foot rub.
I'm sure you're letting the afternoon paperwork back up again. Hurry along. You need to work extra hard to pay for that 737 type if you ever want to sling gear for that Air Tran f/o.:laugh:

That Air Tran FO is soon to be making more than you are. Ha ha ha ha. And he's at a stepping stone airline. Shoot. Even after an Air Tran CA get's stapled at SWA, he'll be making more than an 88 or 73 Captian is at Song. And that's as an FO.

 

[GoodTimes]

ACL,

The legacy airlines have been mismanaged for years. Point the finger where it belongs instead of at the pilot group of SWA. They're highly compensated now and the company still makes money. The reverse is true at the legacies. In my four years at UAL; 3 CEO's, Avolar, UsAir merger (DC Air anyone?), TED, BK......the list goes on. Does anyone really think these airlines would be doing fine if SWA was out of the picture?

 

[dicko]

. Even after an Air Tran CA get's stapled at SWA, he'll be making more than an 88 or 73 Captian is at Song. And that's as an FO.

The AirTran Captain is probably already making more than the Delta Captain.

Random 9th year AirTran guy:

9th year pay. Captain: $153 an hour. ($158 in December)
78 hour minimum if on Res.
Realistic average is 87 hours of credit because you're not on Reserve

117-137 Seat aircraft.

Random 9th year Delta guy:

He's still an FO, but let's pretend he's a Captain.

9th year Delta MD88 Captain rate: $155 an hour.
70 hour guarantee. Commuting to reserve in NYC ....

144 Seat aircraft.



You do the math. The Retirement fund is 1.5% difference.

 

[jonjuan]

See, I see it as a little different. I blame SWAPA for allowing the company to charge each new pilot hire for a type, thus lowering the cost to the company, I then see a pilot group that prior to the CH11 era got paid a lot less than we did. I saw a well managed company (SWA) undercutting everyone else and their pilots willing participants in lowering their costs and as a result no one could compete. This resulted in SWAPA pilot being better paid today, and them earning the "Darling of the Industry" title, but the reality is that they undercut every other pilot group out there. It seems everyone's memory is so short that they forget the way it was ten years ago.

Much of the reason we are where we are today, is because of SWA(SWAPA's) willingness to cut the piloting trade off at the knees for their own gain.

Not a popular position, but one that needs to be stated.

Nice solid, factual, unemotional post. Many at wn refuse to admit how they got where they are.

 

[jonjuan]

When you outsource customer service the product suffers, it's that simple.

People buy the cheapest tickets, it's that simple.

 

[jonjuan]

Southwest just has a different strategy and it has worked well. Part of that strategy is hire pilots who want to be there and let them fly ALL of your airplanes.

Walmart also has a "different strategy" which allowed them to grow and prosper. Buy all your cheap crap from China and dump it.

 

[redflyer65]

Nice solid, factual, unemotional post. Many at wn refuse to admit how they got where they are.

The factual part is 40 years of profit from a great management team, vs DL (well, not so much).

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The factual part is 40 years of profit from a great management team, vs DL (well, not so much).

Which is great, and I am impressed by the business model, but the fact remains that SWA prior to the CH11 era always compensated their pilots below the industry, and the pilots were complicit in this. Now that the rest of the airline labor groups have taken asinine cuts, SWA and SWAPA is a darling. Pilots look at it as a goal, where less than a half a decade ago, it was the low compensation option.
Our memories are short, pilots cannot remember who took the legs out of the rest of the airlines business plans, and as a result a PFT outfit prospered. The pilots are paid very well, treat well and enjoy their job, but the reality is still the same, they undercut the rest of their fellow brothers and sisters to get to where they are. The growth was on the backs of fellow pilots. That is why, many will not shed a tear if some SWA pilots have to wait 20+ years to upgrade.

You pay has hit the resistance level, and it is at that level because of how SWAPA helped the company undercut the rest of the airlines. Now the hope will be for the other airlines to match or beat your benefits and wages so you can get more. Like I said it is the tail wagging the dog, and the cycle is coming full circle. When pilots stop becoming willing participants in the game of business we will take pilot costs off the variable side of the ledger. Until then; Wash, Rinse, repeat.

 

[GoodTimes]

ACL,

"Who took the legs out of the rest of the airlines business plans"

Really?

Are you saying that the pilots of SWA are responsible for the demise of the legacy airlines? Last time I checked this is a free market economy. SWA has done better operating in the post deregulated industry than the legacies. Pilot pay is one very small part of the equation as the current SWA pay so vividly illustrates. If you're going to hang on to that stale, decade old myth about SWA being responsible for the demise of your paycheck, then you're going to need more help than I thought to "take it back". Good luck.

 

[redflyer65]

GoodTimes,

That's exactly what I was thinking, just because the legacies ran their businesses into the ground (ie bankruptcy), that's Southwest fault? That arguement is completely crazy. Talk about re-writing history, give me a break.

How do low cost operators like Virgin, JetBlue and Airtran fit into that thesis? Southwest is a well run company that has taken care of the bottom line from day one, just because the other carriers can't, doesn't mean it's SW problem.

Unfortunately in this economy, I don't see any of the legacies making any ground in compensation. Just isn't going to happen, but OYS/Gen would have you believe that Delta will get a 25-30% pay increase any day. Good luck with that. (I really hope they do, it helps all)

RF

 

[FBN0223]

ACL
Southwest has set the bar for our future negotiations, at least, for compensation(that's a good thing). Check the DAL forum and you'll see at least three threads stating exactly that. But most importantly, if you buy a ticket on Southwest Airlines, you'll get Southwest pilots flying your jet.

If y'all down south want to give ALPA one more shot, fine. Make sure ALPA comes to the membership with an agreement that takes back OUR flying and restores our compensation before you vote yes.



Good luck

 

[GoodTimes]

Nice solid, factual, unemotional post. Many at wn refuse to admit how they got where they are.

And many at the legacies refuse to examine how they got where they are.

 

[waveflyer]

Which means what? You guys act like SOUTHWEST's labor has ever been cheap compared to revenues. It never has. The problem at legacies is all the mismanagement and stepping over a $100 to save a dime. The greed and selfishness at the top trickles down to the whole organization. And swa has benefitted from excellent mgmt where the selflessness and teamwork has actively flowed from the top. The pay is not the difference between southwest and most of the rest. The lack of pay was never the advantage- and the elevated pay is not going to be our demise.
If we have one thing to look out for, it's if we get too lazy and complacent and stop rewarding swa mgmt for how they treat us. Now that could be our downfall.

 

[redflyer65]

Most likely widebodies will be parked by Ma Delta, followed by narrowbodies when the full AAI/SW intergration starts firing on all cylinders.

Could be an intersting summer on Virginia Ave.

RF

 

[relief tube]

Over 2000 are older than 60 apparently.
OYS

yay for greedy old guys getting in the way of everything.

 

[waveflyer]

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/Employees&Compensation.html

Click on it. ^^^