Delta negotiations

[General Lee]

This is what I have heard. During the initial proposal from the company, the managment negotiators gave a presentation that was punitive to say the least. Apparently they talked at length about how the pilots have runied the airline and they gave their proposal and asked to break for lunch. The ALPA people said there was no need since they thought management's proposal was crazy. Word got back to Grinstein and he thought there needed to be another meeting. A few days later he sat down with Dalpa negotiators, some DL Chief Pilots, etc and talked for many hours, actually apologizing and wanting new dialog. Supposedly, he said "We need $1 billion a year, and you guys can figure out how you want to give that up." ( I wasn't there, this was told to me) So, the latest I have heard is that they all will be meeting shortly and break up into small groups and talk about each bullet(scope, pension, % pay cut etc) and get this wrapped up soon. Then, when they come up with a TA, they will take it to the pilots and there will be a vote. This sounds good to me, because they are talking and not "demanding". I am sure there will be things "taken away"---but maybe not "everything." And, I doubt the top guys will get everything they want, and the bottom guys get nothing or get furloughed. Malone knows he made some promises, and he will have a revolt if he fails to keep some of them... (that was for you--Dave Griffen)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DaveGriffin]

.....the bottom guys get nothing or get furloughed. Malone knows he made some promises, and he will have a revolt if he fails to keep some of them... (that was for you--Dave Griffen)

Bye Bye--General Lee

General Leigh;

You are about 18 hrs behind on the rumor mill. The bottom third SOLs will never have the votes to overcome the combined votes of the top third greedy b*stards and the middle third wannabes. The TA will pass no matter how bad a ream job the juniors get.

The "new" long haul Delta is perfect for the seniors and sh*tty for the juniors.

postnote: I can't wait to see how the MEC tries to sell its version of J4J.

 

[Vortilon]

Dave,

Nobody uses this term "seniors" and "juniors".

What are we in friggin High School? Anybody wanna buy a pool pass?

 

[DaveGriffin]

Dave,

Nobody uses this term "seniors" and "juniors".

What are we in friggin High School? Anybody wanna buy a pool pass?

Vortster;

I guess that's right, if you're a civilian non-qual.

 

[PsubS]

Ohhh, Dave's gettin' pissy...

 

[General Lee]

Davie,

Sorry, I have been flying for the last 4 days. Do you know what the TA will have? I don't. How do you know the bottom third will get reamed? Is this just a guess or do you know for a fact?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DaveGriffin]

This is what I have heard. During the initial proposal from the company, the managment negotiators gave a presentation that was punitive to say the least. Apparently they talked at length about how the pilots have runied the airline and they gave their proposal and asked to break for lunch. The ALPA people said there was no need since they thought management's proposal was crazy. Word got back to Grinstein and he thought there needed to be another meeting. A few days later he sat down with Dalpa negotiators, some DL Chief Pilots, etc and talked for many hours, actually apologizing and wanting new dialog. Supposedly, he said "We need $1 billion a year, and you guys can figure out how you want to give that up." ( I wasn't there, this was told to me) So, the latest I have heard is that they all will be meeting shortly and break up into small groups and talk about each bullet(scope, pension, % pay cut etc) and get this wrapped up soon. Then, when they come up with a TA, they will take it to the pilots and there will be a vote. This sounds good to me, because they are talking and not "demanding". I am sure there will be things "taken away"---but maybe not "everything." And, I doubt the top guys will get everything they want, and the bottom guys get nothing or get furloughed. Malone knows he made some promises, and he will have a revolt if he fails to keep some of them... (that was for you--Dave Griffen)


Bye Bye--General Lee

General Leigh;

You're saying that Malone and the negotiating committee fell for the "good cop/bad cop" routine? That's is the oldest trick in the book!!

 

[DaveGriffin]

Davie,

Sorry, I have been flying for the last 4 days. Do you know what the TA will have? I don't. How do you know the bottom third will get reamed? Is this just a guess or do you know for a fact?


Bye Bye--General Lee

It's obviously a guess, but I may be pretty close.

My bet is that the top third will take care of themselves first (as always), at the same time understanding that a high priority also has to be to keep the middle third wannabes (tha's you GL) in line for their votes. After the middle third is taken care of there is simply nothing left to offer the bottom third SOLs.

They only thing they can offer the SOLs is to pick the pockets of DCI through J4J and give them what they can there.

Profit sharing stock will be limited, the fewer folks that are eligible increases the potential return for those that do hold it.

I am sure that management calculated the likelihood of MEC approval as a primary component of their new long haul strategy. I wouldn't be surprised if it hasn't already been given unofficail approval. But that is just another WAG.

What do YOU think GL?

 

[jobear]

Let me get this straight, I have no dog in this fight so, DAL told DALPA "hey we WANT 1 billion" is this right?
If so please preceed/if not ignore the rest.
DAL said we want 1 billion you guys said NO, so they waited let you worry about the mortages,college funds,retirements,& ex-wives and put out a ton of doom and gloom press releases. Fast fwd a couple of weeks and all the sudden you want to sit down with them? What changed the DALPA MEC's mind about listening to these consessionary demands from DAL?

I'm not trying to piss anyone of just trying to figure out the change in thinking.

Jobear

 

[Vortilon]

Dave,


"Civilian Non-Qual"? What does that mean? Your strange language frightens and confuses me. All I'm hearing is a lot of clicking sounds.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Davie,

Sorry, I have been flying for the last 4 days.
Bye Bye--General Lee

General, you need to invest in a laptop. Obviously you're not as addicted as some of us.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Dave,


"Civilian Non-Qual"? What does that mean? Your strange language frightens and confuses me. All I'm hearing is a lot of clicking sounds.

Vort;

Enlist in the Marine Corps and come back and talk to me in 3 years. It will do you a world of good.

 

[Vortilon]

Dave,

Maybe you should go back.

 

[juan2go]

Dave,

Lighten up. Please.

Regards,

juan

 

[General Lee]

Dave,


Please join the Merchant Marines, they might need a cook on one of those big tankers...


Seriously, I don't know what Dalpa is negotiating, and I hope they keep all of us in mind. If they do not, they risk another "Western revolt"---which is what happened when the Western Airlines guys thought they got $crewed by ALPA, and all left. I have flown with a couple of them out here in ATL, and they still hold a major grudge.


Goggles,

I am saving up my money right now, and if I brought a lap top on the road, I might just go crazy. Do you want me to write MORE OFTEN on this board? I have over 3000 posts already. I think there are many guys on here that are happy I don't post every day.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

As far as the DAL contract re-negotiations, I dont have a dog in that fight, but do have my ticket punched and got the T-shirt from the USMC. From what Im reading on this thread, this guy Dave comes off as needing a blanket party. For all you "non quals" out there as Dave put it, It means he needs an attitude adjustment.

Dave, what gives??? The Marines taught me to control my emothions in stressful situations, what happened to you??? Simmer down Devil Dog. Your point will be better recieved and taken more seriously if you address it from a non-emotional perspective. Be professional and drop the whole "go join the Marines" bit. Its embarrassing. I know lots of great people who havent been in the Corp. Im sure Mr Civ (Vortilon) over there could drop a few "Civ only" insider comments on you that would send you off wondering. Had to get my 2 cents off my chest...

Semper Fi...
Bigbrowndc8

 

[MarineGrunt]

The Marines taught me to control my emothions in stressful situations, what happened to you???

You apparently must have picked up a lisp along the way too!

S/F

 

[grinder]

Do not, I repeat, Don't question Dave's authority or integrity on any matters. When I did the same on an earlier thread, he berated me for flying P-3s, saying I had gotten Air Medals and Per Diem which made me stupid. Now he'll rip into you for flying boxes in old planes, or brown uniforms, or something clever like that. You are really going to get it!

Of course Dave is probably one of those guys that would hate people for the way they look, etc.

Thanks to the wisdom of Dave, I am now rightly ashamed for being a junior Delta guy and all my silly Navy flying and the dumb non-DCI commuter outfit I flew for and going to college and graduating from H.S., etc., etc. What was I thinking? If only they had Flight Info when I was Dave's age........

 

[sleepy]

These clowns that get on here from time to time claiming to have been in the USMC, then using that to berate others for their lack of service in the same , are an embarrassment to us all.


Semper Fi!

 

[~~~^~~~]

General :

It seems a little late to begin Interest Based Bargaining to come up with a 1 Billion dollar concessionary contract. ALPA does not move that fast and there will be many little battles within your MEC on how to arrive at that figure. No ALPA politician is eager to be associated with a concessionary contract, no matter how desperate the situation.

Then there remains the issue of DCI. Your MEC does not represent these pilots.

None the less, we are hearing that ALPA is talking about DCI flying for Delta pilots - calling it "Brand Scope" since "Jets for Jobs" now has such a negative stigma. Obviously this is playing right into the scenario the RJDC has been preparing for. Even if the RJDC does not prevail in Court, legal action will tie this up long enough to force Delta to declare bankruptcy before the first Delta pilot begins IOE on an RJ.

As a possibly relevant aside, ASA's management has come to the negotiating table demanding concessions and trying to revoke the agreements reached in our two years of IBB. It appears ASA's management is trying to deliberately stall our contract in anticipation of something.

Do you think these issues can be worked out before Delta files Chapter 11?

Also, we know that C2K will survive in some form even after Ch. 11. Any ideas on the post Ch. 11 strategy?

My crystal ball only takes me as far as a Ch. 11 during a period from October to February 05. After that - what?

~~~^~~~

 

[Data]

Dave,
I am saving up my money right now, and if I brought a lap top on the road, I might just go crazy.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Here ya go General, it's even in Atlanta...

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=38696

 

[General Lee]

Data,


Thanks, but I would go nuts on the road if I always had a computer around. I sometimes look at the company computers in the crew lounge when I pass through CVG, LGA, DFW, SLC, MCO, etc....That's about all I can handle though.


Fins,

As far as IBB, I am just repeating what I heard. I don't think Grinstein want's to go Chap 11, otherwise he would not have tried this latest debt restructuring deal, he would have just done nothing. It sounds like he wants to make it through without going to court, and he has given Dalpa the ability to come up with $1 billion a year--any way THEY WANT TO. Is this true? I don't know, I really am not privy to any of this. I just got the briefing in the lounge. I know it is a little late in the game for this, but maybe it will go quickly. As far as working out a J4J deal, they pretty much can do anything they want with the company agreeing to it for the whole corporation's best interest. They probably could make a seperate DCI entity if they wanted to, I don't know.... Like MDA. I also don't think it would be any fun going to Chap 11, and I don't know how the company would be run or what may happen. I am just along for the ride just like you are......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[P38JLightning]

IBB rules!

>>>he has given Dalpa the ability to come up with $1 billion a year--any way THEY WANT TO.


Oh Yeah!

I'd start with the 700 million+ I already put on the table. Maybe tweak it up to 800M with some realistic retirement mods, like 50% FAE for average best 20 years.

The rest could come from the $50K/yr flying waitresses who work 10-15 days/month and other entry level jobs that don't warrant nice cumulative annual raises for 3 decades. Do you think Micky D's pays their fry cooks and register help that kind of coin just because someone sticks with it for 30 years? Well maybe if that person becomes the store manager, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Sorry GG, but a HS diploma and a 3 week training course in no way will ever compare to what it takes to be a pilot or a mechanic. Cut half of Delta and DCI's VP's and stop leaking money to your direct competitors like Indy Air and Republic, USAir and United and Midwest and stop helping CHQ and SkyWest provide cheaper "product" to their "other partners" by ensuring their growth and profitability.

I bet all that would add up to a lot more than the missing 300 million GG claims is the deal breaker.

 

[General Lee]

Well, also if we do go into Chap 11, the lawyers could make as much as $300 million. But, remember that Delta wants an extra $300 million (from the $705 million) A YEAR FOR 6 YEARS. That means they really want an extra $1.8 billion over 6 years.


I have a feeling we will bump the pay cut up to somewhere close to 30% (or an extra 7%) which should add about $130 million extra (I think every 5% equals about $100 million anually).

And, I will say it again, I don't think they WANT to go in Chap 11, but will if the HAVE TO. I think this IBB is better than just demanding, and maybe they will do it at a quicker pace. We shall see.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[P38JLightning]

no way

other things they want--like no scope, no INTL scope, no more no furlough clause, etc has no value to them. Yeah give them all (or even part of) that and say bye bye to whatever C2K you think you have left. Unless you are willing to underbid every pilot group in the US and every foreign codeshare for all your international routes.

No, that shouldn't even be on the table. You'd be better off taking it to the courts. The alternative is the elimination of the Delta pilot group. I just hope no one allows that, thinking they still have time to make some good bank before the bottom falls out, like the last 3 year FAE escape artists. Nice work, that group.

 

[General Lee]

P38,


You are right. I know DCI wants more planes, but at the same time we would like to try to keep the same number of pilots on our property, and bring back our furloughs. We also would like to eventually hire again someday. What will likely happen is Dalpa will do the same thing they did on the '96 contract with Delta Express---and that is to make a lower pay rate for certain aircraft, and then keep a higher wage (not the highest anymore) on the larger equipment. Then there will be some sort of artificial limit on the number of smaller aircraft---like 100 100 seaters. (we don't want 400 100 seaters and 7 764s) Or maybe there would be a certain ratio to keep. As far as unlimited 70 seaters and J4Js---that would depend on how many possible jobs would be lost if we got rid of the no furlough clause. I can't see Malone $crewing over anyone on the bottom. (He would have to explain his actions) I am sure Dave Griffen thinks otherwise.


Bye Bye--General Lee