Delta Merge with JetBlue?

[Mamma]

Found this on Yahoo....

Bankrupt Delta Air Lines has cut thousands of jobs, slashed salaries and considered abandoning its pilots' pension plan to stay in business. Now, the nation's No. 3 airline is asking some 50,000 employees to volunteer to clean aircraft at night on their own time. Their reward: a free T-shirt, reward points good for merchandise and a chance to show their pride in the airline. Employees will pull four- and eight-hour shifts to clean interior windows and walls, "scrape stuff from tray tables and floors . . . if there's gum on the floor," said spokesman Anthony Black. Cleaning lavatories is part of the drill, too.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Man, I like it. Imagine the tag line: "JetDelta -- Two Airlines in the ."

edit: dude, just noticed USNFDX is checking out this forum. that's some powerful stuff to get him away from stalking SWA/FO.

 

[flatspin7]

I actaully prefer DeltaBlue... It has a nice futile ring to it.

 

[SkyWench]

more like Deltablues

 

[pilotyip]

Remember K-Mart bought Sears

 

[blzr]

Delta could get back on track easily. First, Dismiss everyone from management, then hire a bunch of college kids for $30k/year and an expence account at the Cheetah3. They would probably do a much better job than the goons there now and it would save Delta Millions/year.

Just a thought.

 

[pilotyip]

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in the last year had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”; the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Is there a leadership gap in management, probably at some airlines, and that is a greater problem than the management pay. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management

 

[Ty Webb]

The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure

Pilotyip, this is wishful thinking on your part . . . .it's precisely the skill of the CEO that separates the "leaders" from the "bleeders". Compare Crandall with Mullin, Kelleher with Arpey, etc. The problem is that there are too many bozos running these circuses that only know how to follow the old playbook, not how to write the next chapter, yet most of them will be richly rewarded for their blunders and sent packing with a package that would make anyone with a little decency embarassed and ashamed.

 

[blzr]

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW in the last year had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”; the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Is there a leadership gap in management, probably at some airlines, and that is a greater problem than the management pay. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management

WHAAAA?? Not intentionally.....WHAAAA. How many pilots, Arabs excluded, intentionally run into ANYTHING? Point is, and it's infuriating, They are paid BIG bucks to basicallymake poor judgements.

"Without mangement you could not run an airline".... Um... How about every Saturday and Sunday? I doubt nyone is really at Corp doing anything and the airline does just fine. Maybe those in management should be allowed ONLY to make mid-5 figure salaries until they start showing their competence, as pilots do when they start somewhere. I on't know too many $100k first year f/o's.

I don't care who they are, they Ain't worth their pay, with few exceptions.

 

[accinelli]

Delta could get back on track easily. First, Dismiss everyone from management, then hire a bunch of college kids for $30k/year and an expence account at the Cheetah3. They would probably do a much better job than the goons there now and it would save Delta Millions/year.

Just a thought.

Or they could dismiss all the pilots then hire a bunch of college kids for #30K/year to fly.

 

[blzr]

Or they could dismiss all the pilots then hire a bunch of college kids for #30K/year to fly.

Unfortunately, that seems to be the direction we are heading.

 

[pilotyip]

Why college kids? you do not need a college degree to be a fantastic pilot. If the airlines lower their wages enought the college degree will no longer be requriement. BTW Ty and Blzr, how do you fix the managment problem, the leadership problem? Lots of complaints, but very few realisitic solutions.

 

[800Dog]

Why college kids? you do not need a college degree to be a fantastic pilot. If the airlines lower their wages enought the college degree will no longer be requriement. BTW Ty and Blzr, how do you fix the managment problem, the leadership problem? Lots of complaints, but very few realisitic solutions.

Avoid hiring MBAs from Ivy League schools as they do not teach ethics at those schools. The graduates of these schools have a sense of entitlement. Hire MBAs from UGA, Texas, Florida, BYU etc. who have both a strong work ethic and leadership skills that were instilled in them from a very young age by their parents. Hold the BODs accountable if they hire and retain an ineffective CEO. Hire a mad scientist to clone Herb Kelleher. These are just a few fixes. It is a shame that you continually down play the importance of a college degree and fail to construct a coherent sentence. I am not the spelling police but Yip, you can do better.

 

[Counselair]

Delta-Jet Blue...... "Two Good Airlines, One Great Future". Oh, Lord please NO... not again!!!!!

Counselair:bawling:

 

[pilotyip]

What YIP Sppell?

What YIP leran to speel, my 4th grade teacher told me there was no hope. BTW It has been posted that I am anti-college degree. Nothing cold is further from the truth. The country needs all the college-educated citizens it can have, its raises the level of knowledge to keep this as the greatest country in the world. Real degrees in business, engineering, the sciences, math, and medicine provide a graduate with marketable skills. If you are going to go to college, get a real degree from a real university. Do not spend four years getting a degree in Women’s Studies. The college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Many have posted they agree it has nothing to do with the mastering on an airplane. I have admitted that the possession of a degree may open doors at a few select places of employment in the airline industry. If a potential pilot feels they will only be pleased in life if they get an interview with FedEx, then that prospective pilot should go to college. Air Inc advertises that 172 airlines and assorted aviation companies are recruiting right now; I only see four that make the degree a showstopper. My assertion that runs contrary to the ‘College is a must” crowd, is that to be competitive for the other 168 places the degree is not necessary. If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$100K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary. Many prospective pilots may be steered into attending college when they are not college material, not because of a lack basic intelligence, but because it is not important to them. These pilots want to get on with their lives flying airplanes. I have seen too many non-degreed pilots reach a good career position with out a degree. But then my focus is on job satisfaction and not upon pay, respect, and prestige. It is about the joy of flying an airplane. Others out there may feel the same motivation I do.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Why college kids? you do not need a college degree to be a fantastic pilot. If the airlines lower their wages enought the college degree will no longer be requriement.

I think it's the other way around. If you continue to lower wages, no one with a college degree will waste their time pursuing an airline career. I agree that you do not necessarily need a college degree to drive a plane. But the people who are inquisitive enough to understand the math and physics behind some of what we do and how the airplanes we operate work have keener insight and more depth of knowledge and those people tend to continue on to college and co-incidently make pretty good pilots.

But a nifty backpack for a flightbag and a sharp Tag Heuer watch their mom got them for graduating flight school is pretty darn important too.

 

[pilotyip]

Bringup we actually agree, it would work this way, as the wage bar drops, pilots with college degrees elect to not apply for airline jobs. The airlines needing pilots to fly their airplane, will redefine their competitive hiring minimums which now not include a college degree. We are saying the same thing, I think just coming at it from the other side. BTW I still $100K/yr is a good job for a college graduate.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

Remember K-Mart bought Sears

OK, how about DeltaBlueLight then?

 

[Bringupthebird]

OK, how about DeltaBlueLight then?

BlueLite - JB's ULCC (Ultra Low Cost Carrier)

 

[9rj9]

staple?

the delta guys would all be stapled.

 

[jetflier]

Found this on Yahoo....

Bankrupt Delta Air Lines has cut thousands of jobs, slashed salaries and considered abandoning its pilots' pension plan to stay in business. Now, the nation's No. 3 airline is asking some 50,000 employees to volunteer to clean aircraft at night on their own time. Their reward: a free T-shirt, reward points good for merchandise and a chance to show their pride in the airline. Employees will pull four- and eight-hour shifts to clean interior windows and walls, "scrape stuff from tray tables and floors . . . if there's gum on the floor," said spokesman Anthony Black. Cleaning lavatories is part of the drill, too.

GMAFB !

 

[Guitar Guy]

The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure.

And yet CEO's tend to be the highest-paid/compensated people at their companies. Pretty good gig for someone with "little control". Makes one wonder why the compensation is so good for someone with so little control and why some airline CEO's have had far more success than others.

 

[pilotyip]

Guitar, the pay is not the issue, yes they may demonstrate poor leadership by taking the money when everyone else is giving it up. But if they worked for free every pilot could get a $10 a month raise before taxes. Again guys in the CEO position have to have the confidence of the capitol markets; they have to lean a team to execute plans to save the airline. There are very few people in the country with that kind of talent. They are easy to despise, but what is the solution?

 

[Bringupthebird]

They are easy to despise, but what is the solution?

Slash their pay and benefits. We're dealing in an industry that has become a commodity with little or no innovation. It needs caretakers at this point, not CEO's. The capital markets could care less who's running the place. Ergo the USAirways/Am West deal. Folks who wanted to get first dibs at the cash trough threw money into it. If they never get a dime out of their initial investment, they've still made a mint in the mean time with contracts, etc..

When someone comes along who can figure out how to add value they'll become worth their limo's weight in gold.

 

[HighSpeedClimb]

OK, how about DeltaBlueLight then?

Close, DeltaBlueLightSpecial, LCC

 

[regionaltard]

Close, DeltaBlueLightSpecial, LCC

Instead of hiring pilots maybe they could make it a class at UND or something....

 

[stonewall]

Guitar, the pay is not the issue, yes they may demonstrate poor leadership by taking the money when everyone else is giving it up. But if they worked for free every pilot could get a $10 a month raise before taxes. Again guys in the CEO position have to have the confidence of the capitol markets; they have to lean a team to execute plans to save the airline. There are very few people in the country with that kind of talent. They are easy to despise, but what is the solution?

That kind of talent? WTF? I haven't spend a day in B-school but I couldn't do worse than some of these idiots.

In the USAF, you can't win a medal for getting yourself out of a situation your own stupidity got you into in the first place. Now, these CEOs are "saving" airlines and getting rewarded? Dude, these are the idiots that ran 'em into the ground! You should NOT be rewarded for cleaning up your own freaking mess.

 

[pilotyip]

All you guys who have all the answers, you need to get out of the cockpit and save the industry. The brotherhood will sign your praises into eturnity.

 

[GogglesPisano]

BTW I still $100K/yr is a good job for a college graduate.

I agree. And some make that right out of B-school. Those who graduate with undergraduate degrees in enginering average $50,000 these days.

Pilots, on the other hand, start out as a CFI making about $15-$20K. A few years later they might fly night cargo or charter and make a bit more. Then they start at a regional and take a pay cut back to about $20,000. If they wind up at a regional with quick upgrades they may wind up making captain in a year or two and their income will rise to about $40-$50K, depending on equipment. If they are at a stagnant regional that could take upwards of 8-10 years. All the while their college roomates who majored in business/accounting/engineering are buying McMansions/SUV's and maxing out their 401k's and starting families. These same roomates wonder when their pilot friend is going to move out of their parents' basement.

They then decide to follow their dream of flying "big iron." They take another paycut ($26K at UPS to start, maybe $40K at AT ...) Some get furloughed for 5 years (thousands after 9-11 actually.) They make finally make $100K after 3-5 years at a major.

Add it up. This is a terrible return on investment. They are ten years behind their college roomates. Let's not even mention the medical/checkride hazards to your livelihood.

Now honestly Yip, why are you trying to sell this career to people?

 

[BenderGonzales]

Goggles,

Best post i've read in a long time. Thank you.