Delta may have to file for BK

[FDJ2]

It was a major blow to ALPA to have 2 pilots now doing the work of 3. It goes both ways.

So you are saying that two pilots are now doing the work of three. Sure, management wants fewer pilots doing more work for the same pay.

 

[f9driver]

Delta Bankruptcy

FDJ2,
"WHAT DID YOU LOSE WHEN DELTA RENEGED"

Oh, about half of my retirement. UAL took pilots out of seniority when they bought the Pan Am Pacific routes. We had a few hundred pilots left that were to go with the LAD Division to Delta. When Delta reneged at the final hour Pan Am went Chapt. 7. The "A" fund was taken over by the PBGC and the benefits received were less than half what was promised in the contract. Believe me you guys don't EVER want to go there!

 

[DaveGriffin]

So you are saying that two pilots are now doing the work of three. Sure, management wants fewer pilots doing more work for the same pay.

Don't play dumb FDJ.

You know all a 727 FE does is make adjustments to the bleed air so the passengers don't complain about the cabin temp too much. It's taken care of now by a $15.97 chip and servomechanism.

The workload for the 2 pilots in the cockpit today is less than the total workload of the 3 pilots before.

Ain't technology grand?

 

[miles otoole]

Re: Re: Re: Delta may have to file for BK

Not quite right. There are negotiations in BK.

OK then. Good luck in um, er, uhhhhh..."negotiations" in bankruptcy, if that's what you want to call them.

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Delta Bankruptcy

FDJ2,
"WHAT DID YOU LOSE WHEN DELTA RENEGED"

Oh, about half of my retirement. UAL took pilots out of seniority when they bought the Pan Am Pacific routes. We had a few hundred pilots left that were to go with the LAD Division to Delta. When Delta reneged at the final hour Pan Am went Chapt. 7. The "A" fund was taken over by the PBGC and the benefits received were less than half what was promised in the contract. Believe me you guys don't EVER want to go there!

F9driver, the Pan Am liquidation was unquestionably a catastrophic event for many. Certainly losing half your retirement hurts, but I don't think you can blame DAL on Pan AM's demise. To what would you attribute the demise of Pan AM, greedy pilots, other greedy labor groups, or perhaps a business plan that was not sustainable? Do you believe that concessions would have saved Pan AM?

 

[FDJ2]

The workload for the 2 pilots in the cockpit today is less than the total workload of the 3 pilots before.

And you base this conclusion on what?

 

[701EV]

If Gerry really wants to save money. Why not show some good faith and merge Comair and ASA, then well you know... wishful thinking? We could get rid of three managemnet trees, Freddy B, Randy R, and Skippy B. Then Maintanence, Flight Control,and so on. Delta has their own hotel dept. Comair has their own hotel dept. ASA contracts out it's hotel dept to the tune of a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year. Oh another dept we colud consolidate to save money. I could go on, these just popped into my head.

Come on Gerry step up to the plate and show us you really want to save money. Or does he just want gut what costs the most right now?

Just a thought...

701EV

 

[Heavy Set]

Can't IMPOSE NEW SALARIES IN CHAP. 11

Bankruptcy can FORCE RENEGOTIATIONS - it cannot impose new rules or new contracts. Most people don't understand that.

For example, the bankruptcy judge cannot set a new lease rate for an aircraft or set new salary levels for a pilot group... What would the judge say, "You must now pay American 777 or Spirit MD80 wages..." That wouldn't happen. The Delta pilot contract could be renegotiated vs. waiting for the contract to end.

 

[LEROY]

Dave Griffin

First off, I hope your avatar was earned...I would cringe at what my SEAL buddies would think if someone were misrepresenting themselves...
Second, there are still some airlines out there flying 3-man cockpits. I would think quite a few plumbers would disagree with you as far as backseat responsibilities go. I even heard one person say that they were going to mod the 72 into a 2-person cockpit by lengthening the gear handle so the FE could reach it!

 

[MedFlyer]

Re: Can't IMPOSE NEW SALARIES IN CHAP. 11

Bankruptcy can FORCE RENEGOTIATIONS - it cannot impose new rules or new contracts. Most people don't understand that.

For example, the bankruptcy judge cannot set a new lease rate for an aircraft or set new salary levels for a pilot group... What would the judge say, "You must now pay American 777 or Spirit MD80 wages..." That wouldn't happen. The Delta pilot contract could be renegotiated vs. waiting for the contract to end.

Not totally true. If DL went into BK, they would attempt to renegotiate with the pilots. If an agreement is reached, ratified and approved by the BK judge, then that would be the new contract that goes into effect.

However, if renegotiation attempts during BK fail and an impasse is reached, DL can ask the judge to void the existing contract and IMPOSE a new one. This action would also open the pilots up to any self-help actions they desire. This is obviously the least desirable path to take, but it is a possibility.

As for DL's SEC filing....I would (surprisingly) have to agree with DALPA on this one. It's not really any news. Either DL gets its costs and business model in line with the industry or DL goes BK. It's really that simple.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Re: Dave Griffin

Second, there are still some airlines out there flying 3-man cockpits. I would think quite a few plumbers would disagree with you as far as backseat responsibilities go. I even heard one person say that they were going to mod the 72 into a 2-person cockpit by lengthening the gear handle so the FE could reach it!

Thanks LEROY;

The discussion topic deals with Delta, their MEC and the airplanes they fly.

 

[rjcap]

Bankruptcy can FORCE RENEGOTIATIONS - it cannot impose new rules or new contracts. Most people don't understand that.

You might want to check with the USAir pilots on that one.

 

[miles otoole]

Re: Re: Can't IMPOSE NEW SALARIES IN CHAP. 11

Not totally true. If DL went into BK, they would attempt to renegotiate with the pilots. If an agreement is reached, ratified and approved by the BK judge, then that would be the new contract that goes into effect.

However, if renegotiation attempts during BK fail and an impasse is reached, DL can ask the judge to void the existing contract and IMPOSE a new one. This action would also open the pilots up to any self-help actions they desire. This is obviously the least desirable path to take, but it is a possibility.

As for DL's SEC filing....I would (surprisingly) have to agree with DALPA on this one. It's not really any news. Either DL gets its costs and business model in line with the industry or DL goes BK. It's really that simple.

You beat me to it, MedFlyer. I love it when pilots get their info from other pilots and believe everything they hear. I checked with a lawyer in the family who works frequently with bankruptcy proceedings and this is what she basically told me.

As for the SEAL pin Leroy, I too have 4 or 5 college (a giveaway?)buddies who wear the pin and they would think "cool." Their egos ain't that big.

 

[sidesaddle]

[

You know all a 727 FE does is make adjustments to the bleed air so the passengers don't complain about the cabin temp too much. It's taken care of now by a $15.97 chip and servomechanism.

[/B]

Anyone who has ever "plumbed" on a 727 would never say this. Actually the Capt and the FE do all the work and it's the F/O who does the "pitot heat, windshield heat, I'll have the chicken" checklist.

 

[DaveGriffin]

And you base this conclusion on what?

Let’s see FDJ……

An Intel 386 chip replaced the job of the FE in the 57 and 67, with major protest and foot dragging from ALPA.

The question is this? Do you believe that the AC and FO now have a harder job with the automation of the FE’s function? Have the advances in technology and automation of other cockpit functions made the AC and FO’s job harder? Of course not!

The third pilot (the original FE position wasn’t even a pilot) was about as useful as the Nav in a KC-135 after GPS technology was introduced.

The interesting dynamic in all of this is how ALPA used the position of the FE to perpetuate the top-heavy seniority strategy of ALPA. The 2 pilots would barely even speak civilly to the junior FE during regular flight ops; he was treated as a mindless panel monkey.

Yet in negotiations with management, the FE is a critical member of the cockpit crew.

ALPA has always been focused on diverting as much of the wealth as possible to the senior guys and creating a low paid caste system for the junior guys, with threat of loss of the future “golden ring” if the junior guys don’t shut up, pay their dues and support a system focused only on serving the interest of the seniors.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

An Intel 386 chip replaced the job of the FE in the 57 and 67...

Why is it that mechanics always say the last two numbers when talking about Boeings when everyone else in the world uses the first two?

 

[Boeingman]

Re: Can't IMPOSE NEW SALARIES IN CHAP. 11

Bankruptcy can FORCE RENEGOTIATIONS - it cannot impose new rules or new contracts.

Do the numbers 1113 mean anything to you? I didn't think so.

 

[FDJ2]

You might want to check with the USAir pilots on that one.

Really? What was imposed?

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Re: Re: Can't IMPOSE NEW SALARIES IN CHAP. 11

You beat me to it, MedFlyer. I love it when pilots get their info from other pilots and believe everything they hear. I checked with a lawyer in the family who works frequently with bankruptcy proceedings and this is what she basically told me.

Tool, Medflyer stated that in BK either there is a negotiated settlement or a contract can be imposed and the union can seek self help if it desires. Now what does that sound like? It sounds very similar to an accelerated section 6 negotiation. Sure the stakes are high, but this is not for the faint at heart.

The biggest losers in BK are the investors and lenders, the institutions and individuals who the CEO and BODs work for. The only winners are the lawyers. BK is not a negotiating strategy, it is corporate failure. Neither management or labor can be assured of the result, but the investors and lenders will lose the most.

 

[dlredline]

They renegotiated their pension.

Well, sort of . . .

The USAirways MEC voted (without allowing membership ratification) to give away the defined benefit plan and replace it with the company backed defined contribution. So while technically the above statement is true, the pilots as a group had no say in the matter, and almost 6000 pilots and the pension they had worked for all those years was gone, based upon the decision of a dozen spineless wonders on the MEC. Turns out that the numbers USAirways was using to base their "distressed situation" on were bogus, and the DB plan never needed termination.

Bankruptcy is bad, no matter how you paint it. Even when something is "negotiated" during BK, the line pilot's are at the whim of the judge, the company, and (unfortunately sometimes) their own MEC.

Red

 

[FDJ2]

Have the advances in technology and automation of other cockpit functions made the AC and FO’s job harder? Of course not!

Dave, automation presents different challenges.

I'm not sure from what experience level you are coming from, but in my experience, particularly during emergencies or other high work load environments the third man makes a big difference. I've flown a variety of aircraft from single seat military, to two seat glass and three seat heavies. In the end the aggregate work load is the same. Automation just gives you more capabilities, but it needs to be watched carefully, because it can bite you in the butt.

Dave, were you a Navy SEAL and are you a pilot?

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Re: Can't IMPOSE NEW SALARIES IN CHAP. 11

Do the numbers 1113 mean anything to you? I didn't think so.

Do you have any idea what they mean? Do you care to enlighten us?

 

[bafanguy]

Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code...

 

[bafanguy]

Davegriffin,

My Man !!! You are the angrier than any guy in town...even angrier than lequip and THAT's saying something.

What the deal ? All you have to say is one diatribe after another about the senior guys vs the junior. Where are YOU coming from ? You haven't established yourself as a DL pilot, or even a pilot.

Care to enlighten the world a bit about your motives and background ? If you're an airline pilot...and junior...welcome the the airline world. Someday YOU will be one of those **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed "senior" guys you love to hate. I'd love to hear what you're singing at THAT point.

As for ALPA's role in this, it's a democratic organization; you know, one pilot, one vote. And at DL, the pilot group demographics have changed so that the senior guys no longer have the ability to outvote the junior guys.

So, what is the deal ?

 

[f9driver]

Delta Pilots

FDJ2
"To what do I attribute Pan Ams bankruptcy"

Many, many things. Not the least of which was the pilots greed. When the 747 was introduced the pay was 3 times the B-707 pay it replaced....roughly $100,000 per year in 1969. This was an exorbitant amount then. The 747 also allowed the senior half of the list to get the huge Final Average Earnings (FAE ) in retirement. They made sure the cap was taken off and this made their retirement huge. Nothing was left in the pot for those further down the list when bankruptcy came.
One of the early 747 captains actually proposed they create a Master Captain who would sit behind the pilots and supervise the crew like a ship's captain. He further proposed that they wear a 3 inch stripe on their sleeve. Most of these egomaniacs were not ex-military. Many were former Civilan Pilot Training(CPT) instructors, and got their jobs when most of the guys were off fighting WWII. Do a lot of pilots have trouble being "humble?" I think the answer is obvious.

 

[N2264J]

...in BK either there is a negotiated settlement or a contract can be imposed and the union can seek self help if it desires.

As a practical matter, what kind of bargaining capital do you think a pilot group has in bankruptcy?

 

[SoBeFlyer]

Small point...but worth mentioning...

If you find yourself in first/business class on an int'l flight on a two pilot aircraft, you may notice a pilot in a reserved pax seat. This relief pilot is required (by the FAA) on flights greater than 8 hrs and is usually a four striper. If the plane had an FE, there would be no relief pilot so long as the flight was less than 12 hrs. Thus for 8-12hr flights, a three pilot cockpit is cheaper than a two.

 

[Huck]

After watching the recent documentary about Swissair's MD11 crash, it seemed to me that they may have benefitted from a flight engineer....

 

[FDJ2]

Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code...

Yeah, I know that, I was just wondering if Boeingman knew what was in section 1113 and how it works. Perhaps he can tell us.

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Re: Delta may have to file for BK

As a practical matter, what kind of bargaining capital do you think a pilot group has in bankruptcy?

At the end of the day, the same capital any pilot group has when it seeks self help.