Delta may have to file for BK

[DaveGriffin]

Add the fact that ALPA will NOT combat this in the media for some unknown reason......

Be careful what you wish for.

If the brilliant MEC gets its PR a$$ in gear, we may be lucky to see another interview in the AJC with whining Switzer, put out by the MEC in March '01 .

That was a turning point in public opinion by portraying Delta pilots as major league crybabies, when what they were trying to do was show the pilots' side of the story.

The reason the MEC avoids PR is because they always do such a $hitty job at it. There is very little of the MEC's story, other than safety issues, that resonates with the public.

 

[FDJ2]

News Flash FDJ.

It ain't Delta management that's resetting your career expectations, it's the market.

Dave, you make it seem like this is the first time the market has put downward pressure on pilot compensation. As if this was the first time there were a flood of new entry airlines with depressed wages and benefits and legacy carriers in CH11, as if there were something new here. News flash, there ain't much new here . If you haven't already done so, I recommend you read "Hard Landings", it's a great book on the industry post deregulation. You'll find that this profession has been down this road before. There are always casualties, but there are also survivors. At the end of the day the carriers that went under went under either due to poor management and poor strategic choices, or due to unethical corporate raiders whose only interest was to line their pockets. I can't recall one airline that went under because their pilots were the highest paid. If pilot wages were the determining factor in profitability SWA would be contemplating CH11 and US would be recording profits each quarter. The airlines that survive and prosper do so because their business model works. Management always wants two things in good times and in bad, your time and your money, its up to us as professionals to demand compensation commensurate with the responsibilities of the job and to help other pilots do the same.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:

"I can't believe the arrogance and greed out there....typified by guys like the General...... Anybody who has spent much time in the military would know it was an insult to run around calling yourself General. Why is it the non-military guys like fighter planes as avatars and military rank? gggg"


Thats laughable.....(thanks by the way...I needed a laugh today). Do a search and you may find what "General Lee" could mean. I can think of a couple right now and they have nothing to do with the military (talk about the pot calling the kettle black with respect to "arrogance").

Like somebody else said.....relax, you're gonna give yourself a coronary here in your "golden years" of retirement.

 

[On Your Six]

General Lee Reference = Car from TV

F9,

General Lee has already stated NUMEROUS TIMES that his name refers to the infamous orange General Lee car from the TV series DUKES OF HAZZARD. Do you remember that TV show - early to mid 1980s?

I don't think he is using it in a historic military sense - at least that is what he claims. Perhaps you should chill out and think more before you bash people for their "esoteric" choice of user name.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Re: General Lee Reference = Car from TV

F9,

General Lee has already stated NUMEROUS TIMES that his name refers to the infamous orange General Lee car from the TV series DUKES OF HAZZARD. .................Perhaps you should chill out and think more before you bash people for their "esoteric" choice of user name.

Exactly right OY6;

I prefer to bash the Gen for being a blow-hard know-it-all who blindly supports and defends the MEC as they do everything they can to protect the interests of the controlling seniors at the expense of the juniors. No esoterica in that.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Management always wants two things in good times and in bad, your time and your money........

Sure thing FDJ.

Just like the pilot group, in good times and bad, always wanting more for less.

Remember ALPA's frantic fight against 2 pilot cockpits? It was a major blow to ALPA to have 2 pilots now doing the work of 3. It goes both ways.

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Delta Paycut

Well, it looks like I lose again. The first time was when Delta reneged on the Pan Am takeover and the second was whenI bought a couple of thousand shares of DAL thinking the Delta Pilots would get serious, grow up and take something resembling industry standard.

F9driver the Delta pilots have been willing to negotiate for over a year now. The Delta MEC just put out the following with reference to the latest DAL SEC filing.

"To all Delta Pilots Regarding Delta's 10Q Filing
May 10, 2004

Several news reports have surfaced regarding a Delta 10-Q Filing with the SEC. Pilots should note that this filing does not reflect any new developments. ALPA continues to closely monitor Delta's financial condition as part of an ongoing analysis.

For the past year ALPA has attempted to engage Delta in negotiations aimed at assisting the Company in attaining an overall competitive cost structure. We are today, and will remain for the future, prepared to conduct negotiations with Delta to assist in every reasonable way in reducing the Company's cost structure and returning it to profitability and stability."

Personally, I'm very pleased with the fact that my MEC does not chase deals. If GG and the boys want to negotiate, we're ready anytime they want to actually sit at the table and negotiate, instead of making demands in the press.

On a side note, how did you lose when DAL refused to buy Pan Am?

 

[Eagleflip]

In defense of General Lee, I must admit that while unabashedly pro-Delta, he normally discusses issues with fact and without too much emotion. Usually, anyway. In all cases, however, he never ascribes to a military rank.

Rather, he just likes the vision of Daisy Duke leaning on his "hood."

More to the point, FDJ2, I would only comment that the current situation does not equate to the days of deregulation, thus all of the lessons from Hard Landings do not apply.

Specifically, the rise of LCCs (in terms of percentage of total passengers conveyed) are doubly troubling. They not only siphon off certain travelers who would have traveled on a mainline carrier, but they do so with a different cost structure. De-regulation, while leading to the rise of short-lived non-traditional carriers, was truly fought in the trenches of the mainline carriers.

The environment has changed, probably permanently.

In any case, market forces take on numerous dynamics. From an economics standpoint, downward pressure on revenue will undoubtedly lead to decreased compensation for certain labor categories if and only if that compensation is deemed "elastic."

Wage elasticity depends on many variables, including union dynamics, labor law, availability of trained and capable replacements, desired corporate culture, and individual acceptance.

The question is clear. Does Delta's survival depend on pilot concessions? If so, when will the parties involved actually stop dancing around the issue and resolve the problem?

 

[N2264J]

The Delta MEC has been willing to negotiate a reasonable package for some time now...The Delta pilots are willing contribute what is required, but we are not willing to concede what is wanted.

There are no negotiations in bankruptcy. Things get imposed.

The cuts Grinstein is asking for still leaves the Delta pilot's contract in the "industry leading" zone. If the Delta pilots want to maintain this industry leading status, it's going to have to be worked out before bankruptcy is filed.

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Re: Delta may have to file for BK

There are no negotiations in bankruptcy. Things get imposed.

Not quite right. There are negotiations in BK.

 

[FDJ2]

It was a major blow to ALPA to have 2 pilots now doing the work of 3. It goes both ways.

So you are saying that two pilots are now doing the work of three. Sure, management wants fewer pilots doing more work for the same pay.

 

[f9driver]

Delta Bankruptcy

FDJ2,
"WHAT DID YOU LOSE WHEN DELTA RENEGED"

Oh, about half of my retirement. UAL took pilots out of seniority when they bought the Pan Am Pacific routes. We had a few hundred pilots left that were to go with the LAD Division to Delta. When Delta reneged at the final hour Pan Am went Chapt. 7. The "A" fund was taken over by the PBGC and the benefits received were less than half what was promised in the contract. Believe me you guys don't EVER want to go there!

 

[DaveGriffin]

So you are saying that two pilots are now doing the work of three. Sure, management wants fewer pilots doing more work for the same pay.

Don't play dumb FDJ.

You know all a 727 FE does is make adjustments to the bleed air so the passengers don't complain about the cabin temp too much. It's taken care of now by a $15.97 chip and servomechanism.

The workload for the 2 pilots in the cockpit today is less than the total workload of the 3 pilots before.

Ain't technology grand?

 

[miles otoole]

Re: Re: Re: Delta may have to file for BK

Not quite right. There are negotiations in BK.

OK then. Good luck in um, er, uhhhhh..."negotiations" in bankruptcy, if that's what you want to call them.

 

[FDJ2]

Re: Delta Bankruptcy

FDJ2,
"WHAT DID YOU LOSE WHEN DELTA RENEGED"

Oh, about half of my retirement. UAL took pilots out of seniority when they bought the Pan Am Pacific routes. We had a few hundred pilots left that were to go with the LAD Division to Delta. When Delta reneged at the final hour Pan Am went Chapt. 7. The "A" fund was taken over by the PBGC and the benefits received were less than half what was promised in the contract. Believe me you guys don't EVER want to go there!

F9driver, the Pan Am liquidation was unquestionably a catastrophic event for many. Certainly losing half your retirement hurts, but I don't think you can blame DAL on Pan AM's demise. To what would you attribute the demise of Pan AM, greedy pilots, other greedy labor groups, or perhaps a business plan that was not sustainable? Do you believe that concessions would have saved Pan AM?

 

[FDJ2]

The workload for the 2 pilots in the cockpit today is less than the total workload of the 3 pilots before.

And you base this conclusion on what?

 

[701EV]

If Gerry really wants to save money. Why not show some good faith and merge Comair and ASA, then well you know... wishful thinking? We could get rid of three managemnet trees, Freddy B, Randy R, and Skippy B. Then Maintanence, Flight Control,and so on. Delta has their own hotel dept. Comair has their own hotel dept. ASA contracts out it's hotel dept to the tune of a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year. Oh another dept we colud consolidate to save money. I could go on, these just popped into my head.

Come on Gerry step up to the plate and show us you really want to save money. Or does he just want gut what costs the most right now?

Just a thought...

701EV

 

[Heavy Set]

Can't IMPOSE NEW SALARIES IN CHAP. 11

Bankruptcy can FORCE RENEGOTIATIONS - it cannot impose new rules or new contracts. Most people don't understand that.

For example, the bankruptcy judge cannot set a new lease rate for an aircraft or set new salary levels for a pilot group... What would the judge say, "You must now pay American 777 or Spirit MD80 wages..." That wouldn't happen. The Delta pilot contract could be renegotiated vs. waiting for the contract to end.

 

[LEROY]

Dave Griffin

First off, I hope your avatar was earned...I would cringe at what my SEAL buddies would think if someone were misrepresenting themselves...
Second, there are still some airlines out there flying 3-man cockpits. I would think quite a few plumbers would disagree with you as far as backseat responsibilities go. I even heard one person say that they were going to mod the 72 into a 2-person cockpit by lengthening the gear handle so the FE could reach it!

 

[MedFlyer]

Re: Can't IMPOSE NEW SALARIES IN CHAP. 11

Bankruptcy can FORCE RENEGOTIATIONS - it cannot impose new rules or new contracts. Most people don't understand that.

For example, the bankruptcy judge cannot set a new lease rate for an aircraft or set new salary levels for a pilot group... What would the judge say, "You must now pay American 777 or Spirit MD80 wages..." That wouldn't happen. The Delta pilot contract could be renegotiated vs. waiting for the contract to end.

Not totally true. If DL went into BK, they would attempt to renegotiate with the pilots. If an agreement is reached, ratified and approved by the BK judge, then that would be the new contract that goes into effect.

However, if renegotiation attempts during BK fail and an impasse is reached, DL can ask the judge to void the existing contract and IMPOSE a new one. This action would also open the pilots up to any self-help actions they desire. This is obviously the least desirable path to take, but it is a possibility.

As for DL's SEC filing....I would (surprisingly) have to agree with DALPA on this one. It's not really any news. Either DL gets its costs and business model in line with the industry or DL goes BK. It's really that simple.