Delta looks to retired pilots?

701EV

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Delta looks to retired pilots

Staff, wire reports
Published on: 10/19/05 Delta Air Lines Inc. will likely ask its pilots union to extend an agreement to recall retired pilots to prevent staffing shortages as it ambitiously expands its international service while operating under bankruptcy protection, Chief Executive Gerald Grinstein said Tuesday.
Grinstein made the comments after a news conference set up to launch new nonstop service to several European destinations.


http://www.ajc.com/shared-local/images/1pix_trans.gifThe nation's third-largest carrier has seen 1,190 of its pilots retire over the last year, many of them early. The mass exodus came as many pilots feared losing their pension benefits if the airline filed for Chapter 11, which it did Sept. 14.
Asked whether the Atlanta-based airline was concerned about its ability to maintain its new international schedule long term, Grinstein said Tuesday that it wasn't. He said Delta would likely ask the pilots union to extend an agreement first reached in September 2004 that allows it to recall retired pilots on a limited basis to help prevent staffing shortages. He said the current agreement runs out Dec. 31.
"We expect to be able to man that equipment," Grinstein told reporters gathered at the Atlanta airport.
A union spokesman did not immediately return a call Tuesday seeking comment.
However, in a recent e-mail message to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, an Air Line Pilots Association spokesman said the union viewed Delta's hiring of retired pilots as a "temporary stopgap" and had filed a grievance protesting that Delta wasn't training new hires from outside Delta ranks quickly enough.
"ALPA would prefer that when a pilot retires, an active pilot be trained and ready to take the newly vacated seat. In a profession where pay raises are largely tied to advancement, even a temporary delay in that advancement is unpopular," said ALPA spokesman John Culp in the e-mail. "It is fair to say that ALPA looks forward to the day the [retired pilot] program is not necessary."
Delta's ranks of active pilots have thinned in recent years from roughly 9,000 in early 2001 to about 6,000 now.
When the plan to recall retired pilots was first reached, the union said there would be a "random selection process" for those in the post-retirement pool, which can be tapped only when staffing falls below a certain level. It said at the time that eligible pilots must be captain-qualified and current in certain models of aircraft.
The union said the agreement allowed it to determine after a period of time that no additional pilots might be employed as post-retirement pilots. Delta needs its pilots for its broad international expansion.
The airline says its goal is to earn 35 percent of its revenue from international routes by 2007. Roughly 20 percent of Delta's revenue now comes from international flights.
The shift would make Delta comparable with most competitors, which derive 60 percent to 75 percent of their revenue from domestic flights.
Delta announced Tuesday new nonstop flights from Atlanta to Edinburgh, Scotland; to Nice, France; to Venice, Italy; and to Athens, Greece, as well as New York to Budapest, Hungary; to Dublin/Shannon, Ireland; to Manchester, England; and to Kiev, Ukraine.
All the flights are expected to begin in May except the Kiev flight, which is expected to begin June 5 subject to foreign government approval.
Delta has said it will make international travel a bigger part of its operations as part of its effort to return to profitability.
Union officials, meanwhile, have been meeting since Monday to discuss the company's request for $325 million in concessions from pilots. That would come on top of $1 billion in annual concessions the pilots agreed to last year.
— Associated Press and Russell Grantham


Hey General I don't know about you but I say HELL NO! Get the FURLOUGHED folks back! Delta has plenty of pilots, some of them just aren't working.

701EV
 

~~~^~~~

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Jeesh...

Delta announces they are not funding their pension obligations, DP3 gets told they don't have standing, but, the silver lining is that Delta wants them to come back to work....

I agree, the Delta MEC needs to insist that the furloughed guys who want to come back have the option, first.

Just curious, how to the retiree flow back pilots bid. Do they flow back to the top of the list?
 

spanky2

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Fins,
Our man GL will have more info ... but I think that the PRPs have to be < 60 (obviously), have to apply / be accepted, get a "special" seniority number and are junior in that category ... ie the most senipr PRP is junior to the most junior line pilot in that category, and PRPs are only used in certain categories ... ie, 777, 76ER, 767 where manning is low since Delta has chosen NOT to train new pilots to the left seat.

Most pilots agree it is time for this program to end ... it served its purpose , bought some time but mgy has not used the time to fix the real problem ... duh.
 

FlyingSig

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~~~^~~~ said:
Just curious, how to the retiree flow back pilots bid. Do they flow back to the top of the list?

9000 is added to their senority number but they are kept in category. In other words, if you were #100 , now you're #9100. For monthly bidding #500 is senior to #9100 , so #9100 - while still a 777 Capt - is on reserve.

In reality however, most of these guys are checkairmen and get a line built for them.

I did find it humorous though when I rode in on the bus with one and he was commuting to ATL to sit short call.... good goes around ;)
 

spinproof

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What a bunch of ding dongs! What are they using in scheduling a dart board! Didn't they just tell PRP's they were no longer needed last month? Delta notifying some PRPs their service is no longer needed(9-30)!!!!

No pension for you! Next! :angryfire
 
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atrdriver

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I'd tell Grinstein to go pi$$ up a rope. He announces that he is going to furlough more pilots, then says he wants to bring back more of the PRP's? How about properly staffing the place and getting some of the furloughs back where they belong.
 

michael707767

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atrdriver said:
I'd tell Grinstein to go pi$$ up a rope. He announces that he is going to furlough more pilots, then says he wants to bring back more of the PRP's? How about properly staffing the place and getting some of the furloughs back where they belong.

For the record, they don't want to add more PRPs they want to extend the length of time some of the current PRPs can stick around. Especially in the 777 and 765 categories.

PS I still say no. Park airplanes if we have too, but no F-in way.
 
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Spooky 1

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spinproof said:
What a bunch of ding dongs! What are they using in scheduling a dart board! Didn't they just tell PRP's they were no longer needed last month? Delta notifying some PRPs their service is no longer needed(9-30)!!!!

No pension for you! Next! :angryfire

Hey SpinProof. What does anybody's pension have to do with the PRPs? Most of the guys who are losing their pensions, left a long time ago. You sound like a juvinelle that is reaching out to hit anybody that is perceived to be messing in your sand box. Please grow up.
 

Dizel8

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Huh?
From another board, this sounds plain silly if true:

"I just heard from a buddy of mine. He was recalled at the start of the summer and just completed 767. He just found out he has been displaced out of the 767 due to returning retired pilots. How stupid is that. The company just sent him to training and then bump him out so a topped out retired guy can fly the plane".
 

General Lee

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They aren't adding any new PRPs. They want to extend the program from Dec 31st to July 1st, 06. Some of the 200 plus PRPs will be gone by then anyway, and apparently they need fewer of the 767DOM and ER PRPs. Right now they primarily need them on the 777 and 767-400 INTL fleets. I think they will extend it a few months, but not until July of next year. The reason for the program was to give them a one time extension because we only gave them 24 hours notice to retire. We have given them 6 or more months to train people to replace them. That really is long enough. There was another no furlough clause attached while this program was in effect. The people really losing out here are the furloughed pilots awaiting recall.

As far as someone getting bumped from the 767, that is true in some respect because if the PRPs would leave, that might allow him/her to stay on the equipment. He/she was bumped because we displaced the pilots off of the 737-200s and 737-300s on this last bid. Without the PRPs, some could have stayed on their equipment. They will be gone eventually, though---they already have their retirement. The IRS is watching.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

jester757

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General Lee said:
They aren't adding any new PRPs. They want to extend the program from Dec 31st to July 1st, 06. Some of the 200 plus PRPs will be gone by then anyway, and apparently they need fewer of the 767DOM and ER PRPs. Right now they primarily need them on the 777 and 767-400 INTL fleets. I think they will extend it a few months, but not until July of next year. The reason for the program was to give them a one time extension because we only gave them 24 hours notice to retire. We have given them 6 or more months to train people to replace them. That really is long enough. There was another no furlough clause attached while this program was in effect. The people really losing out here are the furloughed pilots awaiting recall.

As far as someone getting bumped from the 767, that is true in some respect because if the PRPs would leave, that might allow him/her to stay on the equipment. He/she was bumped because we displaced the pilots off of the 737-200s and 737-300s on this last bid. Without the PRPs, some could have stayed on their equipment. They will be gone eventually, though---they already have their retirement. The IRS is watching.


Bye Bye--General Lee


FYI Everone who held the 767 in my class just got displaced to smaller equipment on this last bid. PRPs need to go. There is even a rumor of furloughs starting back up with the PRPs on the property. The judge may say the PRPs can stay while DAL furloughs its young...but there is a name for a person who would stay as a PRP while this went on: &%$&. Simple as that.
 

Spooky 1

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jester757 said:
FYI Everone who held the 767 in my class just got displaced to smaller equipment on this last bid. PRPs need to go. There is even a rumor of furloughs starting back up with the PRPs on the property. The judge may say the PRPs can stay while DAL furloughs its young...but there is a name for a person who would stay as a PRP while this went on: &%$&. Simple as that.

Don't blame you for being pissed but whose fault is this anyway? You seem to be blaming the PRPs while you should direct your disgust and anger at the incompetent management and their stooges that set this in motion. I suppose ALPA holds no responsibility for this crap either? So, if tomorrow they got rid of everyone of these guys, would it make a positive difference? I ask because I really don't know. Seems like everything would slow down even further and they might actually furlough until they could catch up?? Unfortunetly you are saddled with some decision makers that just can't get it right no matter what the consequences are. Good luck!
 

ultrarunner

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michael707767 said:
For the record, they don't want to add more PRPs they want to extend the length of time some of the current PRPs can stick around. Especially in the 777 and 765 categories.


What a PERFECT opportunity for every PRP to get together and re-negotiate their hourly rate.

You want us to stay??? He's what it's gonna cost. I'd be all over that.
 

klhoard

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ultrarunner said:
What a PERFECT opportunity for every PRP to get together and re-negotiate their hourly rate.

You want us to stay??? He's what it's gonna cost. I'd be all over that.
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Create a "PRP-ALPA" division??
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Are those guys even paying dues??
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General Lee

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Spooky 1 said:
Don't blame you for being pissed but whose fault is this anyway? You seem to be blaming the PRPs while you should direct your disgust and anger at the incompetent management and their stooges that set this in motion. I suppose ALPA holds no responsibility for this crap either? So, if tomorrow they got rid of everyone of these guys, would it make a positive difference? I ask because I really don't know. Seems like everything would slow down even further and they might actually furlough until they could catch up?? Unfortunetly you are saddled with some decision makers that just can't get it right no matter what the consequences are. Good luck!

You really can blame the PRPs. They were the senior guys that wanted 24 hour notice for retirement in the contract. They got it, and now they are still around. The company had no way to tell if people were going to retire or not (until just recently), and couldn't put out bids for people that may or may not go. This was all about the 24 hours notice to retire. It is impossible to plan for when the company really had no clue how many would retire. Parking planes was not the answer either. But, the company needs to get off their arses and train some replacements. They have had enough time already. And, I don't think they will furlough anymore, because that is part of the original agreement. I think the judge would ask Delta what has been taking so long also. They will all GO eventually.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 

ultrarunner

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klhoard said:
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Create a "PRP-ALPA" division??
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Are those guys even paying dues??
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Screw that....create their own union.

And I can't imagine they are paying dues. Why would they?
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bafanguy

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General Lee said:
They were the senior guys that wanted 24 hour notice for retirement in the contract. They got it, and now they are still around. The company had no way to tell if people were going to retire or not (until just recently), and couldn't put out bids for people that may or may not go. This was all about the 24 hours notice to retire.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Well, this is what happens when there is NO FRIGGIN' trust in the people in corner offices at the GO. Now everyone is paying the price for that lack of trust. They are a bunch of carpetbaggers.

No relationship works without trust whether it's your family, the country, or the people you work for. That's why Delta is doomed to mediocrity from now on.
 

Spooky 1

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Interesting how one thinks that this ship will stay afloat. There was a book once upon a time called something like From Good to Great. I think that creep Leo Mullin had all of his managers read it. At any rate in the book, the author interviews Jim Stockdale, the ranking POW during Vietnam. He asks why he, Stockdale survived when any number of excellent men did not. His answer was that many of these men constantly thought things would get better. They would be released by Christmas, and when that didn't happen, by Easter, or some other date. They were constantly being given hope only to have it dashed by the reality of their hopeless situation. Where as Stockdale realized, or at least believed that nothing was going to get better, and as a matter of fact probably get much worse. Consequently he was never disapointed in how things turned out and that enabled him to endure the hardships of reality. They have since coined a term for this mind set. It's called the Stockdale Parallax. Well unfortunetly I am afraid some of our current guys like the General are going down this same path. Delta is doomed to a long and painful recovery, if that. They will never be a significant player in the world airline industry again as long as they keep the same mangagement team and leadership in place. Good riddance to all those low life Bastards! Meet them in a dark alley. F#@k, I would like to meet anyone them in broad day light so they could see it coming straight on.
 
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TonyC

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General Lee said:
You really can blame the PRPs. They were the senior guys that wanted 24 hour notice for retirement in the contract. They got it, and now they are still around. ...

Bye Bye--General Lee
Oh, that's priceless. If they were to blame, why did you vote for PRPs?

The problem was not senior guys. The problem was not 24 hour notice. The problem was the lack of confidence they had in Delta having a retirement program tomorrow. The only reason many would have exercised a 24-hour option to retire was the doubt that retirement would be available in 25 hours. The solution to that problem was for Delta to restore confidence in the pilots that they would not be dumping the retirement program. Well, now you're in bankruptcy, and now they're skipping payments on the pension fund. Wow. Big surprise. The only surprise is that it's taken this long to get to that point.

There's no excuse for needing PRPs any longer. Remember, the IRS is watching. :rolleyes:



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