DELTA fact or fiction.

[Jmoney]

Nice......

First off Heathrow. Do you really think only American Airlines like Delta, Continental, and USAir will get all of the gates at T-1 and T-4? We were all given 3-4 slots, period. Delta got 3, CAL bought 4, USAir got 1, and NWA got 3. Don't you think AA and UAL would try to get more at those terminals too? How about every other country in the World? Emirates would love to have a few more gates and slots, and they can easily afford them.

BMI/UAL. The difference between BMI/UAL and B6/LH is that BMI already has widebodies. They fly A330s from MAN to LAS, ORD, and the Carribbean, along with A330s from Heathrow to Saudi Arabia. They easily have the ability to move those A330s from MAN to Heathrow, since they are the number 2 airline at Heathrow in terms of slots. Jetblue doesn't have any widebodies, and Lufthansa will make sure they offer to always fly anything large across the Atlantic. What is United gaining from a BMI codeshare at LHR, anyway? They already fly from IAD to every large city in Europe, and same with ORD. What they gain is some small feed to Scottland and Northern Ireland. (Edinburough, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Durham Tees, and Belfast) Every other city BMI flies to from LHR United does too.

Why did Delta hire advisors for possible mergers? They were forced to when Pardus Capital brought it up. Also, in the BK proceedings, the board thought it would be a good idea to look at every angle on how to maximize our worth. A merger might help, or it might hurt. I am sure they hired a few people to look at it. Gordon Bethune looked at the USAir merger for our board, and didn't like it at the time. (political pressure didn't help him). Now he "likes" a United and Delta merger, thanks to Pardus Capital paying him.

What do you mean by BMI maintaining domestic capacity? BMI cannot fly intra United States. Nope. They also aren't a very big airline. How many planes do you think they have? BMI stands for British Midlands---the Midlands of England are around Manchester. They are not a very big player in Europe, but they do have a lot of LHR slots.

Why is 50% of our domestic capacity with the regionals? Good question. Ever think that could be why we went into BK? Did you know that we are parking 35 RJs, and actually adding mainline capacity back this next year. We are getting 9 MD90s from Japan (from JAS airlines, based at Tokyo Haneada airport), and 7 737-700s for the domestic arena, and 4 777LRs for the INTL (along with the rest of the 15 total 757ERs from AA/TWA). Those MD90s will be doing all domestic flights, and taking back some of the RJ routes. The 737-700s (there will eventually be 20--25 of them) will do high airports (like Vail, CO) and some INTL stuff in Central America. Anderson knows that too many RJs can hurt us, especially uneconomical 50 and 37 seaters. Also, a CR9 or E170 takes up a valuable gate, one that could have an MD90 instead bringing in more revenue, and that MD90 costs less than a CR9 too. ($9 million total cost with engines)

Actually, 2008 may not be a downer in terms of mergers. A story popped up earlier that stated airlines might want to think about merging NOW instead of 08 because a new Justice department may come along if a Democrat is elected in late 08, and this one may NOT rule on anything until they think there might be another Republican in office. Also, I think one big merger could cause a lot of other ones, and the Government may not want everyone merging. Could there be mergers in 08? Maybe. Will there have to be mergers? I don't think so. Maybe some LCCs will merge thanks to the flat domestic market.

Bye Bye--General Lee

You came up with this garbage at 2 AM? WOW! You are one hell of a freakshow-General...... And I don't mean that in a "good way."

 

[Griswold]

You came up with this garbage at 2 AM? WOW! You are one hell of a freakshow-General...... And I don't mean that in a "good way."

Hey Jmoney, How r U? I know the General upsets you, but give the guy a break, he loves his job (Delta), and loves flightinfo. He posts some good stuff and likes to get SW guys panties in a wad.

 

[General Lee]

You came up with this garbage at 2 AM? WOW! You are one hell of a freakshow-General...... And I don't mean that in a "good way."

Yes, yes I did, and tell me a part of it that isn't true. You can't. All correct. Don't you have a Valdosta turn to do soon? Get ready and look sharp!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jke406]

You came up with this garbage at 2 AM? WOW! You are one hell of a freakshow-General...... And I don't mean that in a "good way."

what's so bad about that post? it's straightforward, does not bash on whatever half-@ss carrier hired you, and is quite factual.

 

[bleagle]

First off Heathrow. Do you really think only American Airlines like Delta, Continental, and USAir will get all of the gates at T-1 and T-4? We were all given 3-4 slots, period. Delta got 3, CAL bought 4, USAir got 1, and NWA got 3. Don't you think AA and UAL would try to get more at those terminals too? How about every other country in the World? Emirates would love to have a few more gates and slots, and they can easily afford them.

I was under the impression that some slots were being "alloted" NOT bought under the open skies/alliances/codeshare agreements. I thought the 20m price tag was for new slots not being alloted under skies policies or code share agreements.

BMI/UAL. The difference between BMI/UAL and B6/LH is that BMI already has widebodies. They fly A330s from MAN to LAS, ORD, and the Carribbean, along with A330s from Heathrow to Saudi Arabia. They easily have the ability to move those A330s from MAN to Heathrow, since they are the number 2 airline at Heathrow in terms of slots. Jetblue doesn't have any widebodies, and Lufthansa will make sure they offer to always fly anything large across the Atlantic. What is United gaining from a BMI codeshare at LHR, anyway? They already fly from IAD to every large city in Europe, and same with ORD. What they gain is some small feed to Scottland and Northern Ireland. (Edinburough, Glasgow, Aberdeen, Durham Tees, and Belfast) Every other city BMI flies to from LHR United does too.

"Bishop's 50 per cent shareholding in bmi is subject to a call option from minority shareholder Lufthansa. Under the agreement, which is understood to value the stake at around £250m, Lufthansa could take over bmi and its 1,000 slots at Heathrow as soon as next year....the same lufthansa that purchased a 19% stake in JB."
This is MUCH BIGGER than BMI....

"Also,Both Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Group have been quick to play down talk of a sale, but rumours persist that Branson has held talks with Lufthansa about a sale. Time will tell, but as almost anyone in the aviation market will admit, it is the sort of industry where people talk to each other all the time. For British Airways, the trouble is that directly or indirectly what they are generally talking about is Heathrow, how to get in there and how to beat BA."

Why did Delta hire advisors for possible mergers? They were forced to when Pardus Capital brought it up. Also, in the BK proceedings, the board thought it would be a good idea to look at every angle on how to maximize our worth. A merger might help, or it might hurt. I am sure they hired a few people to look at it. Gordon Bethune looked at the USAir merger for our board, and didn't like it at the time. (political pressure didn't help him). Now he "likes" a United and Delta merger, thanks to Pardus Capital paying him.

What do you mean by BMI maintaining domestic capacity? BMI cannot fly intra United States. Nope. They also aren't a very big airline. How many planes do you think they have? BMI stands for British Midlands---the Midlands of England are around Manchester. They are not a very big player in Europe, but they do have a lot of LHR slots.

not yet...remember what I said about mergers/consolidations foreign and domestic

Why is 50% of our domestic capacity with the regionals? Good question. Ever think that could be why we went into BK? Did you know that we are parking 35 RJs, and actually adding mainline capacity back this next year. We are getting 9 MD90s from Japan (from JAS airlines, based at Tokyo Haneada airport), and 7 737-700s for the domestic arena, and 4 777LRs for the INTL (along with the rest of the 15 total 757ERs from AA/TWA). Those MD90s will be doing all domestic flights, and taking back some of the RJ routes. The 737-700s (there will eventually be 20--25 of them) will do high airports (like Vail, CO) and some INTL stuff in Central America. Anderson knows that too many RJs can hurt us, especially uneconomical 50 and 37 seaters. Also, a CR9 or E170 takes up a valuable gate, one that could have an MD90 instead bringing in more revenue, and that MD90 costs less than a CR9 too. ($9 million total cost with engines)

Parking 35 rj's is nice...but what about the other 450 plus "regional" jets under DAL...

My question still deals with the possibility of domestic mergers due to a flat domestic market, weak dollar, rising oil costs, open skies, international mergers

Also,....
"Lawrence Hunt chief executive of business-class-only airline Silverjet, another area of competition for British Airways, says: "Delta and the other US airlines will no doubt massively undercut BA in order to weaken it."
"The issue is that they don't have to make a profit. If things go wrong for them they can just go into Chapter 11 bankruptcy and come out again. I think it will be an interesting three to four years for British Airways."

Actually, 2008 may not be a downer in terms of mergers. A story popped up earlier that stated airlines might want to think about merging NOW instead of 08 because a new Justice department may come along if a Democrat is elected in late 08, and this one may NOT rule on anything until they think there might be another Republican in office. Also, I think one big merger could cause a lot of other ones, and the Government may not want everyone merging. Could there be mergers in 08? Maybe. Will there have to be mergers? I don't think so. Maybe some LCCs will merge thanks to the flat domestic market.

Bye Bye--General Lee[/quote]


The bottom line is I believe the airline industry is changing under the "new global economy" and 2008 will be an interesting year. American companies and foreign companies are looking into mergers and I was just wondering what common thoughts were concerning open skies and how to prepare for it....

your thoughts are appreciated...

 

[PITA]

Ek

Well, the chairman of emirates is Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum whose family just happens to owe "just a couple of oil fields in Qatar"... the same family who funded the start of Emirates in 85.

Again, an emirates pilot told me about the .30 cost in DUBAI but the point really is about NET Fuel costs and really some advantages that foreign carriers now enjoy. Actually, I believe that as the economy becomes more global that even their cheaper labor costs will change and become more expensive.

I am waiting for a response from my source but he was proudly mentioning the fact that the government owned airline has some costs advantages operating out of Dubai....

Never thought I'd be on a Delta thread talking about Emirates, but some clarity to all of the hype, and some of the BS written here.

Sheik Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum, is the Chairman of Emirates and part of the royal family of Dubai.
They however do NOT "own any oilfields in Qatar", that distinction belongs to the royal family of Qatar.

They DO have the oilfields in Dubai, which is part of the UAE.

I do not know if Emirates does/does not get Jet fuel for .30Cents a gallon in Dubai, but I seriously doubt it, as we pay for gasoline about $ 1.75 a gallon for it for our cars.
There is no road tax, sales tax, indigent tax, etc. as there is in the States.
That is about what it costs to refine gasoline, and what we pay here in Dubai.

I DO know for a fact, that Emirates buys the rest of the Jet fuel they use at outstations, the same as everyone else. What ever price was negotiated at the auction/futures market.
There is a big futures bet, that they play along like the rest of the industry.

I know that it is easy to get on the bandwagon and start slagging Emirates, as they are the NEW boys on the block, and from the Mideast, but some of the things said are just not true.

Now however there is a HUGE savings on the cost of labor here. Mostly as it relates to the ground workers.
Most if not all of them work for what is considered slave wages by the rest of the industilized nations.
12/14 hr days for about $ 800 US/mo. And 6 day work weeks. And F/O wages are pittiful to say the least.

I am not a Kool-Aid drinker for Emirates, but spent 18 years in the US before coming here, and so far this place is a HELL of a lot better than what I left behind.

Good luck to you all.

 

[dtfl]

Never thought I'd be on a Delta thread talking about Emirates, but some clarity to all of the hype, and some of the BS written here.

Sheik Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum, is the Chairman of Emirates and part of the royal family of Dubai.
They however do NOT "own any oilfields in Qatar", that distinction belongs to the royal family of Qatar.

They DO have the oilfields in Dubai, which is part of the UAE.

I do not know if Emirates does/does not get Jet fuel for .30Cents a gallon in Dubai, but I seriously doubt it, as we pay for gasoline about $ 1.75 a gallon for it for our cars.
There is no road tax, sales tax, indigent tax, etc. as there is in the States.
That is about what it costs to refine gasoline, and what we pay here in Dubai.

I DO know for a fact, that Emirates buys the rest of the Jet fuel they use at outstations, the same as everyone else. What ever price was negotiated at the auction/futures market.
There is a big futures bet, that they play along like the rest of the industry.

I know that it is easy to get on the bandwagon and start slagging Emirates, as they are the NEW boys on the block, and from the Mideast, but some of the things said are just not true.

Now however there is a HUGE savings on the cost of labor here. Mostly as it relates to the ground workers.
Most if not all of them work for what is considered slave wages by the rest of the industilized nations.
12/14 hr days for about $ 800 US/mo. And 6 day work weeks. And F/O wages are pittiful to say the least.

I am not a Kool-Aid drinker for Emirates, but spent 18 years in the US before coming here, and so far this place is a HELL of a lot better than what I left behind.

Good luck to you all.

Thanks for a real informative post.
So a lot of the ground workers are TCNs?
DO you feel that gives yall a significant cost advantage given the price of oil and the US dollar?

 

[General Lee]

I was under the impression that some slots were being "alloted" NOT bought under the open skies/alliances/codeshare agreements. I thought the 20m price tag was for new slots not being alloted under skies policies or code share agreements.

No, they were either given to someone by a friend (AF gave us 6 total slots for 3 daily flights), or someone bought them. (CAL bought 8 slots or 4 total flights from the owners of GB Airways after Easyjet bought them and didn't want the slots)

"Bishop's 50 per cent shareholding in bmi is subject to a call option from minority shareholder Lufthansa. Under the agreement, which is understood to value the stake at around £250m, Lufthansa could take over bmi and its 1,000 slots at Heathrow as soon as next year....the same lufthansa that purchased a 19% stake in JB."
This is MUCH BIGGER than BMI....

No, the US Govt will not allow any foreign investment of airlines over 25% currently, and that was thought to possibly go to 49% in past legislation, which never passed. It didn't go because Military lift for any future conflict would be provided by US airlines, and a foreign owner might balk at that. Lufthansa may own a part of Jetblue, but they will never direct it where to go.

"Also,Both Virgin Atlantic and Virgin Group have been quick to play down talk of a sale, but rumours persist that Branson has held talks with Lufthansa about a sale. Time will tell, but as almost anyone in the aviation market will admit, it is the sort of industry where people talk to each other all the time. For British Airways, the trouble is that directly or indirectly what they are generally talking about is Heathrow, how to get in there and how to beat BA."

Great, Lufthansa may own a lot of Heathrow slots. That doesn't mean they might get any more JFK or ORD slots, and they certainly won't be able to find lots of gate space at any of our major airports. Also, I doubt Lufthansa will ever beat BA at LHR. BA will own the newest terminal there, and they own that airport.

not yet...remember what I said about mergers/consolidations foreign and domestic

No foreign airlines will own US airlines outright. They may invest in them and add to their credit ratings, but full ownership is not in the cards.



Parking 35 rj's is nice...but what about the other 450 plus "regional" jets under DAL...

Yes, we have plenty of RJs, and 35 is a great start. We also parked over 50 Comair 50 seaters during our BK. We need revenue to keep this thing going, and anything less than 70 seats is not cutting it with high oil.

My question still deals with the possibility of domestic mergers due to a flat domestic market, weak dollar, rising oil costs, open skies, international mergers

Also,....
"Lawrence Hunt chief executive of business-class-only airline Silverjet, another area of competition for British Airways, says: "Delta and the other US airlines will no doubt massively undercut BA in order to weaken it."
"The issue is that they don't have to make a profit. If things go wrong for them they can just go into Chapter 11 bankruptcy and come out again. I think it will be an interesting three to four years for British Airways."

Silverjet is a small 762 operator out of London Luton, hardly a threat to BA. Delta and the others want a foothold into LHR, that is about it. Everyone wants LHR slots because they know they can charge more. Flying to LHR allows airlines to charge a premium due to the location near the financial district. There is only one official LCC that flies into LHR--Click Airways (the LCC offshoot of Iberia out of Barcelona), and they have 2 daily A320s from LHR to La Coruna and Valencia, Spain) I don't see anyone else offering low fares from there. BA is probably safe.



Bye Bye--General Lee

The bottom line is I believe the airline industry is changing under the "new global economy" and 2008 will be an interesting year. American companies and foreign companies are looking into mergers and I was just wondering what common thoughts were concerning open skies and how to prepare for it....

your thoughts are appreciated...[/quote]

You have some good points, but I don't see foreign airlines coming into the US anytime soon to buy unless it is for a small investment. I see Openskies as being opportunistic for airlines if they want to be creative with new routes, but lack of gates and slots will plague all of them in our best markets. If they want to go to Little Rock from FRA, go right ahead.

Bye Bye--General Lee