Delta/DCA returning to Dallas?

[John Pennekamp]

If we can't achieve our wants, and needs, then why even negotiatate with management?

I'm advocating that we END these negotiations, for that very reason.

Should we just roll over and take it up the rear?

Would you characterize our industry leading TA'd scheduling section "taking it up the rear"? How about our industry leading TA'd commuter clause? The only sections left to "take it up the rear" are financial aspects and scope. Are you saying that it's all about money now? Six years ago, the ASA pilots spoke and the MEC agreed this would be a QOL contract, not a money contract. Now the tables seem to have turned, even though the CNC delivered excellent QOL. Which is it?

Needs, interesting term. Cost of living demands we get COLA, as one example, to take care of our needs. Needs to provide for our families, educate our children, pay for increased health care, live in decent housing, and many other needs, and wants too. If this is not possible to achieve, then is this job worth having?

I agree that COLA is a requirement. We can get it if we take something else off the table. It doesn't seem like the current administration is willing to do that. Maybe you're asking this of the wrong person.

Management doesn't have a problem lining their pockets. Compensation for managements is way out of line compared to the 'workers'. Even Congress is investigating this subject. So, we can achieve our needs and wants.

So it's all about retaliation? Those rich jerk management types are stealing from you, and you're going to get even. Now I understand. If the majority is truly doing this to punish management and get even, then it's really not about wants or needs at all, is it? If so, there's little hope for us.

The majority here demands it, and the MEC will follow what the majority want.

No they won't. The MEC has already acknowleged that 60% of the pilots would take the current deal, but they won't do it because they need to do what's "best" for us, despite our opinions.

 

[ASARJMan]

Well, after 4+ years of talks, do you think our wants and needs remain stagnant? Has our current wages and bennies kept up all those years? Are you saying we can't change our demands from 4+ years ago?

No, not retaliation. Just to point out the greed of management. The majority feel we deserve to be compensated near the top, which is fair.

Opinions? Don't you mean your opinions, and those followers you claim? I believe the majority's opinions are in play here, not yours. Sorry about that, but that's the way it works in a democracy, remember?

 

[regionalcap]

What was this thread about? I forgot.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Well, after 4+ years of talks, do you think our wants and needs remain stagnant?

No, they did not remain stagnant. They changed completely from QOL to $$$. It's not fair to change the rules in the middle of the game just because it benefits you "winning".

Has our current wages and bennies kept up all those years?

No. That's why we "need" minor pay improvements and COLA. This was part of the original plan... QOL improvements and a minor pay increase.

Are you saying we can't change our demands from 4+ years ago?

That's what I'm saying. As I said above, it's not fair to change the rules mid game. This is why management won't engage the union, and the NMB won't release them. They're not playing fair.

No, not retaliation. Just to point out the greed of management. The majority feel we deserve to be compensated near the top, which is fair.

Opinions? Don't you mean your opinions, and those followers you claim? I believe the majority's opinions are in play here, not yours. Sorry about that, but that's the way it works in a democracy, remember?

Well, this really is all about opinions isn't it? The interesting thing is we're both saying we represent the majority. The majority is reading this and judging which one of us is right by our words and conduct.

 

[John Pennekamp]

What was this thread about? I forgot.

You're right. Sorry, end of thread hijack.

 

[ASARJMan]

It's not fair to change the rules in the middle of the game just because it benefits you "winning".

it's not fair to change the rules mid game. They're not playing fair.

Well, this really is all about opinions isn't it? The interesting thing is we're both saying we represent the majority. The majority is reading this and judging which one of us is right by our words and conduct.

Yes they are, and they see you stating it's not fair, it's not fair! Boo hoo! The poor company, those dang pilots are asking for COLA now, and they want retro too. Boo hoo!

Welcome to life.

 

[Tomct]

because I want COLA, retro and rigs. I just don't believe we will get it.

And yet THIS is what makes you so WEAK! All of your "positive yapping"
blah...blah...blah! Stand UP for what you believe you DESERVE!! Stop this BS of bad mouthing those that are working for US...by the way, and trying to get us what we ALL WANT!! COLA, retro and rigs! Without it...it is a NO GO!!

 

[Speedtape]

I am NOT anti ALPA. I am 100% pro ALPA in that I believe ALPA is our best chance, despite its flaws. I am upset at the general lack of direction and lack of leadership our MEC is showing. That's my perogative, and is how a democracy works. I also feel that many ASA pilots agree with me.

Probably, all 5 of the ones that voted for you.


I too wish we were released for the short term gains it would provide, but truly, that won't solve our problem, it will only accelerate our demise. We will never strike, because Skywest Inc/ASA will settle in the 11th hour and give us everything. Then they will systematically part us out over the next three years. You can't possible ignore that in light of everything that's been said here.t

This is one little man's speculation. It can not be economically justified.

I may rant, rave, and even offer an occasional calm rational discussion. But I firmly believe that I AM in the majority you speak of because I want COLA, retro and rigs. I just don't believe we will get it.

And I also know how to separate my wants from my needs. Do you?

Maybe, you should have practiced this philosphy in your personal life intead of thinking with the wrong brain. No wonder you are such a malcontent.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I am NOT anti ALPA. I am 100% pro ALPA in that I believe ALPA is our best chance, despite its flaws. I am upset at the general lack of direction and lack of leadership our MEC is showing. That's my perogative, and is how a democracy works. I also feel that many ASA pilots agree with me.

Probably, all 5 of the ones that voted for you.


I too wish we were released for the short term gains it would provide, but truly, that won't solve our problem, it will only accelerate our demise. We will never strike, because Skywest Inc/ASA will settle in the 11th hour and give us everything. Then they will systematically part us out over the next three years. You can't possible ignore that in light of everything that's been said here.t

This is one little man's speculation. It can not be economically justified.

I may rant, rave, and even offer an occasional calm rational discussion. But I firmly believe that I AM in the majority you speak of because I want COLA, retro and rigs. I just don't believe we will get it.

And I also know how to separate my wants from my needs. Do you?


Maybe, you should have practiced this philosphy in your personal life intead of thinking with the wrong brain. No wonder you are such a malcontent.

Yes, more cheesy personal attacks instead of a intelligent rebuttal. Marching in lockstep to the party of line of embarass anyone who speaks out into submission. How's that working out?

Since you don't know me, I'll take your comments about my personal life with a grain of salt. Any mistakes I've made have been a learning experience, and I'd say things have turned out pretty well, thanks. I have no regrets. Come up with some new material if you think you're going to embarass someone who couldn't give a damn what you or anyone else thinks of him!

Now, if we can have an intelligent debate, let's go. If all you've got on your side is whining and personal attacks, I'm over this. The "majority" has now seen plenty of examples of how your side operates. They can decide for themselves which side has more credibility.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Yes they are, and they see you stating it's not fair, it's not fair! Boo hoo! The poor company, those dang pilots are asking for COLA now, and they want retro too. Boo hoo!

Welcome to life.

I'm sorry, was there a rebuttal in there someplace, because if so, I must have missed it.

 

[regionalcap]

Dang, I forgot what this thread was about again. I guess I have a short term memory.

 

[www.]

Maybe, you should have practiced this philosphy in your personal life intead of thinking with the wrong brain. No wonder you are such a malcontent.

ZING!

 

[ASARJMan]

I must have missed it.

Wouldn't be the first thing you've missed would it?

 

[Speedtape]

Yes, more cheesy personal attacks instead of a intelligent rebuttal. Marching in lockstep to the party of line of embarass anyone who speaks out into submission. How's that working out?

Since you don't know me, I'll take your comments about my personal life with a grain of salt. Any mistakes I've made have been a learning experience, and I'd say things have turned out pretty well, thanks. I have no regrets. Come up with some new material if you think you're going to embarass someone who couldn't give a damn what you or anyone else thinks of him!

Now, if we can have an intelligent debate, let's go. If all you've got on your side is whining and personal attacks, I'm over this. The "majority" has now seen plenty of examples of how your side operates. They can decide for themselves which side has more credibility.

YOU GOT ABOUT 5 VOTES--no where near a majority!

Quit your diatribe that you call debate. Quit trying to establish the rules--there are none! You are nothing more than a disgruntled, disenfranchised loudmouth with no respect for anyone as you you have so eloquently (tongue in cheek) memoralized in your posts on this board and in which you appear to take great pride. Your bulldozer personality, unfortunately, diminishes any merit of any argument that you attempt to advance.

This company will be in business and stay in business. You cannot prove with any certainty that it will take any different form. Your fear tactics are sickening.

You do not speak for a majority. You speak for the majority of the malcontents--all 5 of the ones that voted for you. Give it up! There is no one that will follow anything you lead!

 

[John Pennekamp]

YOU GOT ABOUT 5 VOTES--no where near a majority!

Quit your diatribe that you call debate. Quit trying to establish the rules--there are none! You are nothing more than a disgruntled, disenfranchised loudmouth with no respect for anyone as you you have so eloquently (tongue in cheek) memoralized in your posts on this board and in which you appear to take great pride. Your bulldozer personality, unfortunately, diminishes any merit of any argument that you attempt to advance.

Establish rules? Like what we're allowed to call a debate vs. a "diatribe"? Oh and more personal attacks. How mature of you. Keep trying to discredit the messenger because you can't and have not discredited the message. Maybe your bobblehead buddies will agree with you.

That'a all they've got, folks. Go ALPA!

This company will be in business and stay in business. You cannot prove with any certainty that it will take any different form. Your fear tactics are sickening.

Can anyone prove anything that may occur in the future? What a ridiculously stupid statement.

You do not speak for a majority. You speak for the majority of the malcontents--all 5 of the ones that voted for you. Give it up! There is no one that will follow anything you lead!

If all of that is true, then why are you trying so hard to discredit me? Clearly you percieve me as a threat or you and your 3 buddies on here would simply ignore me. Keep it up, with the bashing anyone who speaks against the party line. You're only making the ALPA supporters look like the heavy handed goons you are to the "silent majority", whether I represent them or not.

 

[Speedtape]

Establish rules? Like what we're allowed to call a debate vs. a "diatribe"? Oh and more personal attacks. How mature of you. Keep trying to discredit the messenger because you can't and have not discredited the message. Maybe your bobblehead buddies will agree with you.

That'a all they've got, folks. Go ALPA!



Can anyone prove anything that may occur in the future? What a ridiculously stupid statement.



If all of that is true, then why are you trying so hard to discredit me? Clearly you percieve me as a threat or you and your 3 buddies on here would simply ignore me. Keep it up, with the bashing anyone who speaks against the party line. You're only making the ALPA supporters look like the heavy handed goons you are to the "silent majority", whether I represent them or not.

No one has to discredit you. You have been doing a fine job of that all your life. No one perceives you as a threat, just a loudmouth malcontent. The silent majority does not support you or your opinions. I know that without doubt.

I don't, and have not always agreed with my Union on everything on a local level or a National level. However, I will not undermine the efforts of my Union on a public message board behind a screen name. It is not the time or the place. There is an appropriate place for debate to take place, where action can take place.

As I read your posts, it appears that you have a personal axe to grind with one or more of the other representatives. Unfortunately, you appear to be trying to take down the ship to get your revenge. Take the debate to the appropriate people or the appropriate forum. Interestingly enough, I have attempted to speak with several of them regarding your intent. To their credit, not a single one of them would say one negative thing about you. However, the silence was deafening.

If you are who you claim to be, you had 3 years to lead and make a difference. The ship is on it's course because you helped steer it. If you are not happy with the direction, how can you berate the others who have only served for 3 months? How can you berate the ones who you had the power to appoint? Are we worse off because you are not still at the helm?

If we don't agree with you, you call us bobbleheads. That is name calling and a personal attack. I know most of those who now serve. I did not vote for all of them but they are stepping up to the plate and I feel have the best interests of this pilot group at heart. I will support them, and I will challenge them, and hold them accountable for following the will of this pilot group--and not kowtow to the vocal minority. Having said that, I know that ALL my own self interests will not always be served. I am part of a larger group and I accept that. It is my job to stay informed, stay engaged, and to appropriatedly advance my concerns and interests through interaction with those who represent me. There will always be compromise but that's how democracy should work.

 

[John Pennekamp]

No one has to discredit you. You have been doing a fine job of that all your life. No one perceives you as a threat, just a loudmouth malcontent. The silent majority does not support you or your opinions. I know that without doubt.

I don't, and have not always agreed with my Union on everything on a local level or a National level. However, I will not undermine the efforts of my Union on a public message board behind a screen name. It is not the time or the place. There is an appropriate place for debate to take place, where action can take place.

As I read your posts, it appears that you have a personal axe to grind with one or more of the other representatives. Unfortunately, you appear to be trying to take down the ship to get your revenge. Take the debate to the appropriate people or the appropriate forum. Interestingly enough, I have attempted to speak with several of them regarding your intent. To their credit, not a single one of them would say one negative thing about you. However, the silence was deafening.

If you are who you claim to be, you had 3 years to lead and make a difference. The ship is on it's course because you helped steer it. If you are not happy with the direction, how can you berate the others who have only served for 3 months? How can you berate the ones who you had the power to appoint? Are we worse off because you are not still at the helm?

If we don't agree with you, you call us bobbleheads. That is name calling and a personal attack. I know most of those who now serve. I did not vote for all of them but they are stepping up to the plate and I feel have the best interests of this pilot group at heart. I will support them, and I will challenge them, and hold them accountable for following the will of this pilot group--and not kowtow to the vocal minority. Having said that, I know that ALL my own self interests will not always be served. I am part of a larger group and I accept that. It is my job to stay informed, stay engaged, and to appropriatedly advance my concerns and interests through interaction with those who represent me. There will always be compromise but that's how democracy should work.

At least that was a calm rational response without more attacks.

First, who have I "claimed" to be? I've only said who I'm not, and those of you who still think I'm WF, then I guess the joke's on you. Maybe someday, you'll learn the identity of JP, but it probably won't matter. Ever seen the Wizard of Oz?

As for supporting my reps, absolutely. Right up until they make public statements like "the majority of pilots are too stupid to know what's good for them", which a new MEC member recently said.

You may feel free to challenge them and hold them accountable in your own special way. I'll choose mine.

This isn't about what "John Pennekamp" wants and thinks he's not getting his way. It's about (in the words of the same MEC rep) "60% of the pilots want to settle". That IS a majority, one I'm part of, and the reps aren't listening.

So if what I'm doing here is putting pressure on them, then good. I hope they at least listen, and I hope I've encouraged others they've never heard from to speak up. And attend the meeting on Thursday.

 

[Jmoney]

Pennekamp

I remember what this thread is about! It is about how JP has absouletly no life! What a loser.
The more times I post, the more right I am. The more people who tell me I am a complete basket case, the more validated I feel. It is all water under the bridge-everyone else is wrong-I am the only guy here who can stand to post 100,000 times, so therefore I am the most correct person who has ever been here.......

-Because I'm good enough,
I'm smart enough,
and doggone it,
people like me!

-Pathetic-as I am sure the following "witty" retort will be........

GET HELP!

 

[ASARJMan]

It's about (in the words of the same MEC rep) "60% of the pilots want to settle". That IS a majority, one I'm part of, and the reps aren't listening. .

You're taking that statement (if it were even said) out of context and making too big a deal out of it. Again, how would you, or whomever supposedly said that, come up with 60%? You sure it wasn't 63%, 85%, 33% or 59%, see what I mean? No survey was conducted, but you're acting the fool again and trying to scare those who read this board. If it were presented to the ASA pilots for a vote, maybe it would pass, maybe not. Point is, no one knows. But, without COLA, retro, and rigs, as a minimum, I doubt it would pass, not to mention the lack of scope in the current company offer.

You lost the election (what, 5 votes, wow) so get over yourself. No one, except a few maybe (the 5 who voted for you?), are buying your thoughts or scare tactics. And quit calling me names, i'm a very senstive ALPA member ya know!.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You're taking that statement (if it were even said) out of context and making too big a deal out of it. Again, how would you, or whomever supposedly said that, come up with 60%? You sure it wasn't 63%, 85%, 33% or 59%, see what I mean? No survey was conducted, but you're acting the fool again and trying to scare those who read this board. If it were presented to the ASA pilots for a vote, maybe it would pass, maybe not. Point is, no one knows. But, without COLA, retro, and rigs, as a minimum, I doubt it would pass, not to mention the lack of scope in the current company offer.

You lost the election (what, 5 votes, wow) so get over yourself. No one, except a few maybe (the 5 who voted for you?), are buying your thoughts or scare tactics. And quit calling me names, i'm a very senstive ALPA member ya know!.

"Jack Sparrow" said 60%. ZZ, ZY, and ZX were there. Call them up and ask them if you don't believe me. I'm not making this stuff up. Mabe JS conducted his own survey.