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Delta and possible BK

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tim47SIP
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Tim47SIP

Serving for the USofA
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Posts
1,157
Just read this post from the AJC. It DOES NOT SAY THEY ARE FILLING FOR BK. It does however talk about the possibility of using BK to lower the pilot costs which many on this board stated that Delta would not be allowed to do unless they were out of cash. This implies otherwise. Check it out. And no, I don't hope it happens so please don't go that route.


http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/delta/0404/04delta.html
 
Tim,

I read the article too and I thought it was a lot of propoganda. Sure, we are not in the best shape, but to expect only the pilots to give, while able to extract more concessions from the other groups without contracts is wrong. I think the whole board of directors would be sued for lack of fiduciary responsibility by EVERY stock holder----if they chose to take that route and rendering their stock almost worthless. They could easily get help right now--immediately---and the stock holders know that. They could also sell off ASA/Comair and still have 10 year agreements made with them--but have the extra cash. If they did not make these adjustments---I am sure there would be lawsuits filed. The real deal here is that Grinstein is "Going for it all." I wonder what the stock holders think about that? I am a stock holder, and I personally think it is stupid---but I am biased.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:


PS---Here is what our Dalpa MEC Chair has given us--and I believe him:

April 2, 2004

Dear Fellow Pilot:

In this year’s annual report letter to shareholders, Delta management discusses the “permanently altered marketplace” and points to pilot costs as the main reason for Delta’s poor competitive position among the other network carriers. The fact remains that your union identified a legitimate need for contractual relief almost a year ago and has been attempting to negotiate with management ever since. Our relief package includes waiving the May 1 pay raise along with many other adjustments to reduce pilot costs. We are waiting to receive updated financial information from the company, which the CEO has promised will be forthcoming in the near term. As of this date, management has rebuffed our request to audit the pilots’ pension plan; I will continue to pursue this matter. While the offer to help the company still stands, let’s review the assistance the Delta pilots have already provided since our contract took effect in June 2001.

Consider the following, which ALPA granted without receiving any thing in return:

· Immediately following September 11, the union agreed to waive many contractual provisions, including the bow wave, over-projection, overtime and bank provisions. This allowed Delta to rebuild the airline cost effectively and resume operations expeditiously and smoothly.

· ALPA agreed to delay retrofitting of the contractually required B-777 rest facility, which saved the company tens of millions of dollars.

· ALPA negotiated a SIL agreement with management that allowed Delta to better manage the training pipeline and category staffing, saving millions of dollars, which was beneficial to both parties.

· The union agreed to new CRAF and MAC side letters, which permitted Delta to maximize its share of this lucrative flying, generating many millions of dollars in revenue.

· ALPA waived provisions of the Scope Clause, the bedrock of our contract, to allow Delta to move forward on potential revenue-generating initiatives. These include:

Approved the DAL/NWA/CAL code-share arrangement, which Delta estimates will enhance revenues by $250 million annually.
Approved contractual branding flexibility that permitted management to operate Song as an “airline within an airline” and compete with low cost carriers.
In Contracts 1990, 1996 and 2001, we provided scope flexibility that allowed Delta to adapt quickly to the changes in the revenue environment with the use of small jets, while other airlines were forced to address the RJ issue in crisis bargaining. It is also important to remember that we are operating with 18 percent fewer pilots since September 11, with 1,060 pilots on furlough and hundreds more retired and not replaced.

Finally, as referenced above, the union agreed to enter into mid-contract talks and offered hundreds of millions of dollars in cost reductions, including our May 1, 2004, pay raise. Rather than negotiate, management has continued with its “all or nothing” approach. Even so, your union has kept the door open for continued discussions. We are ready and willing to do our part, as we have demonstrated repeatedly since Contract 2001 was signed.

We are only one side of the negotiating equation. For this time-proven process to work, management must become equally engaged and willing to find a solution that is right for Delta.
 
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Denial isn't just a river....

General,
I am truly impressed with your ability to spin the truth. Are you sure you don't moonlight with the DNC? :) First of all, I am NOT saying that Deltas financial problems are because of high pilot pay. In my opinion, I blame your former head clown (Mullin) and his cronies that put you in this position!

That being said, Delta is in a hurt locker and it will take a team effort to get it out. The old "full pay till the last day" garbage might be your demise. Statements like this should send chills down your back.

But Delta also has tapped most sources from which it can borrow more money to shore up reserves. Most of its aircraft are already borrowed against, and it has no more credit lines to draw on.

Especially since Delta has to have perfect economic conditions just to make it till next year without a BK filing. What happens if there is another terrorist attack, and god forbid its against a passenger airliner?

I do work for Southwest, and am very happy that they control costs and plan for the worst economic conditions and thrive in the best conditions. Although, it will take sacrifices from all Deltas work groups, I belive that the pilots need to take the first step, be leaders, and make it soon! Dont worry, even after you give some money back you will probably still be the highest paid and darn if someone has to suck it up and get the cash! :)

General, reality sucks, and as soon as you and the pilot group recognize it the better off you will be. Just my .02. Good luck.
 
T45flyer,

First of all, who has said on here, "Full pay to the last day?" What board are you reading? Have I ever said that? Nope. I actually think we should give some pay back---and I have said 15-20% pay cuts are probably right---and then through some benies on top of that. That sounds reasonable, right? How about this senerio: Ok, so what if Chap 11 is inevitable? What do you do if we are going to go through it anyway? Do you just give up pay now, and then have more taken away after Chap 11? What we want here is a plan, and some actual negotiating. Would you go into a car dealership and just take the first offer? No, you wouldn't. You need to negotiate. Also, it would be nice to know where all of the money was going---like to fund more RJs. Would you agree to that one? We are getting no where----and nobody on that side wants to negotiate. They just demand--even though they CAN take from every other group without contracts---but they choose not to. Sound fishy yet? It is interesting that we had $2.7 billion in cash Dec 31st of last year---but now have around $2 billion. I sure am glad they VOLUNTARILY pre-funded the pension. They didn't have to do that, and they also could have waited for the pension reform bill to be passed--which will allow them to wait two years to fund anything---giving us more time to pay off current bills for higher fuel prices etc.... Also, as long as your stock is over $1---you can use the capital markets to get funding. It may be more expensive---but our $325 million bond sale to Morgan Stanley three months ago showed that we can still get cash if we need it. Why would Morgan Stanley invest that much money with the prospects of a Chap 11 filing? That sure would be a dumb investment, right? Re-read our MEC chair's letter and see how much we have done, and see what we are willing to do. We are ready to negotiate----the other side needs to see this and come to the table with realistic demands--from one group. Everyone needs to sacrifice here---we all have a stake in this. Please re-read the MEC post above for more insight....(you really need to---I don't think you grasp our position at all)

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
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General Lee said:
T45flyer,

What if Chap 11 is inevitable? Do you just give up pay now, and then have more taken away after Chap 11? What we want here is a plan, and some actual negotiating. Would you go into a car dealership and just take the first offer? No, you wouldn't. You need to negotiate. Also, it would be nice to know where all of the money was going---like to fund more RJs. Would you agree to that one? We are getting no where----and nobody on that side wants to negotiate. They just demand--even though they CAN take from every other group without contracts---but they choose not to. Sound fishy yet? It is interesting that we had $2.7 billion in cash Dec 31st of last year---but now have around $2 billion. I sure am glad they VOLUNTARILY pre-funded the pension. They didn't have to do that, and they also could have waited for the pension reform bill to be passed--which will allow them to wait two years to fund anything---giving us more time to pay off current bills for higher fuel prices etc.... Also, as long as your stock is over $1---you can use the capital markets to get funding. It may be more expensive---but our $325 million bond sale to Morgan Stanley three months ago showed that we can still get cash if we need it. Why would Morgan Stanley invest that much money with the prospects of a Chap 11 filing? That sure would be a dumb investment, right? Re-read our MEC chair's letter and see how much we have done, and see what we are willing to do. We are ready to negotiate----the other side needs to see this and come to the table with realistic demands--from one group. Everyone needs to sacrifice here---we all have a stake in this.


Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:

General,

If you go to the hospital with massive internal injuries and are bleeding all over the place, do you negotiate with the ER doctor over the price? Do you haggle over what kind of sutures he will use?

DL is bleeding to death and DALPA wants to haggle. That's why DL management isn't even trying to negotiate with DALPA. There's no point. DALPA hasn't woken up yet and still wants to play games.

Sure, DL can take on more debt, but what good is that? Remember, the more debt DL takes, the more concessions they will need from you 5, 10 and 15 years down the road to pay it off.

Morgan Stanley didn't really invest anything in DL. The bond offering is immediatley turned around and MS sells them to some saps on the street. MS makes a nice little profit off the sale and if DL defaults on the bonds...the poor sap takes the hit. The folks at MS aren't stupid...they know how to make money even off companies in turmoil.

As for stockholders, I doubt most of them really are watching DL that closely anymore. Any stockholder who rode DL stock all the way down from 70+ probably isn't the greatest investor anyway.

Selling off ASA and Comair might help DL in the short term, but it does nothing to lower DL's costs (the real problem). As long as DL's costs are where they are, DL will continue to lose money...regardless of the economy.
 
MedFlyer said:
General,


DL is bleeding to death and DALPA wants to haggle. That's why DL management isn't even trying to negotiate with DALPA. There's no point. DALPA hasn't woken up yet and still wants to play games.


So many here say the above statement or words similar. What do you know that our E@FA team do not? It's very easy to spout the media line and still know nothing about what you are talking about. Our negotiators have looked at the books, the info is proprietary but they can issue recomendations in light of the info.

What purpose is it for you to say the things you do? You don't seem to be an employee of Delta or one of it's many subsids (if you are I suggest you listen to more than just Fox news, the rjdc or the news papers, call our union if you like)...I guess what I am saying is that we will take the advice of our negotiators over some outside pilot spouting off what he read in USA Today.

NYR
 
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Medflyer knows everything about DAL and the finances. Ummm yeah. Wrong. He thinks we are haggling over the price, when the other side won't even haggle. They have not given any plan on what they will do----just like Siegel. Medflyer is worried because if we do not help, then he will be FORCED to help too. I would turn your attitude around buddy--and start saying "Come on guys---you can do it!! Yea team!"

You don't think the stock holders care? Ummm, ok. What? And MS is just in it for a buck? Whatever dude, you are going nuts. Re-read the MEC statement---and open your eyes please. The other side won't even negotiate----that isn't very smart.

You also stated before that INTL flying doesn't really help us--and you constantly make fun of my rants over our INTL flying. Guess what? It really increased this last March--and it will really help again this Summer. Will you increased RJ flying help? Business flyers don't like them at all, and Airtran is getting rid of all of their RJs. We really need a good plan of action from Grinstein before we invest a lot----and they need to come to the table and also understand that this is a Delta problem--not just a pilot pay problem. That is smart.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
Delta Pay

It is so funny watching you pop up and get agitated everytime Delta Pilot Pay is mentioned General. You have more flimsy excuses than O.J.s lawyers when it comes to defending your paycheck. Do you have a recorded transcript that kicks in on this thread everytime a key word is mentioned? What a tiresome, selfish, repetitive argument?
You remind me of some kind of Chief Protector of the pilot's purse.
Repeat after me Gen. "It is not always about money." Too bad you did not have some earlier training that included duty, honor or country like one of the services.....the Marine Corp maybe. gggg
 
Here we go again----the retired guy who likes to throw in "Duty, Honor, etc..." Give me a break dude. First of all, do you think anyone in MANAGEMENT has any of those? You do? What are you smoking? (now that you are retired....) The union is LOOKING OUT FOR US. They know the deal, and they know that everyone else at this airline also has a stake in this. I KNOW THAT OUR RATES ARE ON THE HIGH SIDE---and I THINK WE SHOULD GET PAY CUTS. Is that LOUD enough for you? I ALSO THINK WE SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN FOR A RIDE. YOU DON'T GIVE UP ON YOUR FIRST TRY. (Were you in the Military? The French Military?) Surrender! Surrender! Is that your moto? Please re-read the MEC posting I posted. That is our stance---and it is a fair stance. I never said we should NOT give up something---you misread me EVERYTIME. Seriously, you do. I would take a pay cut to help out---but we need to know where it will go (not all RJs), and we need to have a plan. I don't think Marines just run onto the battle field without a plan---do they? Admit it chief---I am right!!! There you go---now you feel better. It is a good feeling, isn't it---that I am right. You just said it to yourself. "The General is right---he has ALWAYS been right......He should run for President...Why am I saying this? He is a genius." Ok, enough already---stop thinking that. Enjoy the golf course.

Bye Bye--General Lee;) :cool:
 
What's wrong?

The Delta pilots are simply following ALPA's guidelines for concessionary bargaining, which have two high points:

1) Determine whether a genuine need for concessions exists, and:

2) Try to get value for the concessions.

There is nothing revolutionary or ground-breaking happening at Delta. The MEC is simply adhering to standard ALPA practice.
 
General Lee

General
Did you take your Meds today? You seem particularly "exercised" and agitated. Re-read my post. It was about the thin-skinned way you defend every aspect of your Delta pay. It is a bit ridiculous. We on this board are not responsible for paying you, so convincing us of your worth is not going to effect your pay stub one little bit. "Put a sock in it." lol.
 
Yeah ok, whatever. I am not trying to convince you of anything other than our MEC is looking at the situation and trying to negotiate---which is our right since we have a contract. IF the situation dictates otherwise, then the company should do everything in their means to keep us out of chap 11 ---which is their fiduciary responsibility. This could include looking at the other groups too. What you don't seem to realize F9 driver is that we are NOT in the wrong here---we are willing to sit down early--before our contract is up---and negotiate in GOOD faith. The company is DEMANDING money---and only from our group. Wake up and take your own meds.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:
 
General Lee said:
And MS is just in it for a buck? Whatever dude, you are going nuts. Re-read the MEC statement---and open your eyes please. The other side won't even negotiate----that isn't very smart.

You also stated before that INTL flying doesn't really help us--and you constantly make fun of my rants over our INTL flying. Guess what? It really increased this last March--and it will really help again this Summer. Will you increased RJ flying help? Business flyers don't like them at all, and Airtran is getting rid of all of their RJs. We really need a good plan of action from Grinstein before we invest a lot----and they need to come to the table and also understand that this is a Delta problem--not just a pilot pay problem. That is smart.

Bye Bye--General Lee:rolleyes:

What else do you think MS is in it for? Of course, they are in it for a buck. Why else would MS do the deal? Just for charity!!

Unlike Delta, MS likes to make money. I know the idea of working for a profitable may seem odd to you General, but many companies like to be profitable.

I've never said that INTL flying won't help DL. You are simply making that up. What I have said, is that INTL flying can't balance out all of DL's losses on the domestic side. Remember, Pan Am and TWA had great international networks...but crappy (almost nonexistent) domestic networks. DL has an extensive domestic network, unfortunately much of it loses money. DL can't just stick its head in the sand and hope that international flying saves the day. It didn't work for PanAm/TWA and it won't work for DL.

I agree with you that DL's RJ strategy stinks. Personally, I think DL has way too many RJ's. However, with mainline hemorraghing cash everywhere, the RJ is just a stop-gap to try and slow the bleeding. It's a bad long-term strategy, but so it goes.

Is DALPA willing to negotiate in good faith? Personally, I don't think they are, but that's just my opinion. I think the DL pilots are just being used as pawns in DALPA's desperate attempt to cling to an era that has long since past. Hopefully I am wrong and DALPA is truly acting in the best interest of its pilots.
 
General loosing his kool..

General,
First of all, very disappointing to see you loose your cool so fast. You normally appear to be a logical guy, but I guess those days are over. Your immediate attacks are usually an indication that you know your in the wrong and have to "up the ante" to cover up for your frustration. ok.

Now, back to the simple facts:

1. Song is dead. If it was making money, theres NO WAY a CEO would stop its growth to "re-evaluate". Especially when your losing money faster that you can report it.

2. The well is dry. You have leveraged ALL of your assets and have taking on huge amounts of debt that will have to be paid off at larger and larger intrest rates as your credit gets worse.

3. You continue to lose Millions and Millions (and Millions..etc..) of dollars with no Profitable future insite. You are not rounding to corner to success, you can't even see it yet.

4. Delta is on borrowed time. Any huge downturn of the travel industry (ie Terrorists attack, Democratic Election win, Apocolypse, etc..) will immediately up you into even more dire straits.

So, I would suggest that you lead the charge General, and give up all of the Spinning and Conspiracy Theory garbage, and fix your problems now. I am not saying give all in cash, how about giving the company some productivity? My furloughed Delta buddy use to brag to me how he bid reserve and never put his uniform on for 3 months and was getting full pay. Sounds great in theory but it has its conscequences.

My simple plan for Delta success:
1. Give back enuf pay to remain just slightly industry leading.
2. Become more productive. Give up some of those fancy work rules and log some flight time.
3. Lose Song. Songy and Teddy are playing around in shark infested waters with cuts on thier legs.
4. Quit being "Reactive" and start being "Proactive". Be Delta, lower your CASM, fly me to Europe and be nice about it.

ITS JUST THAT SIMPLE.

Luv ya, mean it.
 
uhhh, right . .

General Lee said:
. . . The union is LOOKING OUT FOR US. . .

Careful, General. That's what 1879 of us said at USAirways.:D

Red
 
MedFlyer said:

( DL has an extensive domestic network, unfortunately much of it loses money. DL can't just stick its head in the sand and hope that international flying saves the day. It didn't work for PanAm/TWA and it won't work for DL.


Please, where do you get this crap? It is a known fact that operationaly Delta has been making money for many many quarters. This is reported in the 10k and the Annual Report. Most of our routes make money....not like you say...."unfortunately much of it loses money"..NOT TRUE. You are just simply hearing it so much it becomes true TO YOU.

The big issuse that causes a loss is our major debt problem. $12B give or take a few B's. This is why DALPA is taking it's time to examine the books so carefully, this is why we are trying to give (~15%) which they won't take. If a Chap 11 filing was comming they could take the 15% and then more later, or just take the 15% and ask again.

To sum it up.....operationaly Delta is making money. You are free to ask the 4th floor types, they will not deny this. After interest and debt service (among other things, rj's) we are losing money.

Try calling our DALPA reps, I know they would talk to you and try to explain our side. You may find it refreshing to hear how willing they are to help, and you will hear why we are stuck where we are.

NYR
 
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If I were the General I would lose my cool too - and a lot faster given the incessant crap coming from F9 and others. Delta's pilots have shown a willingness to negotiate - I have heard 15-20% as an estimate. Management is not looking to any other labor groups - just the pilots. This should be a team effort, especially after Leo and his cronies breached everyone's trust with the secret pension deals...

The General is correct - Dalpa will concede to wage reductions - but up to a point... This is not a one-way street. Why can't others understand that - this is a negotiation....

There are so many questions at this point. What is the ACTUAL STRATEGY to be implemented? How will the wage cutbacks be used? How many RJs will be in the mix? How many Senior Flight Attendants (highest paid in the business) will continue at their industry-high wage rates? Yes, Delta stews are paid a lot more than LCC stews... What about a 100-seater strategy? What is the revenue-generating strategy? Siegel has a great cost-cutting strategy but his airline is TANKING...

F9 is retired and doesn't have any skin in the game - but thank God he DOES have an opinion... Sure, everyone knows that Delta's costs will need to be cut to maintain its margin - that is a given. The question is how to effectively cut the costs - pick on the only unionized labor group or find a fair way to distribute the cuts (with the pilots still taking the largest share).

Needlesstosay, if I were a shareholder I would be furious. The talk about potential bankruptcy does not help the stock price at all. I suggest the Delta pilots learn more about the future strategy of Delta before they completely give in to management's demands...
 
Re: General loosing his kool..

T45Flyer said:
My simple plan for Delta success:
1. Give back enuf pay to remain just slightly industry leading.
2. Become more productive. Give up some of those fancy work rules and log some flight time.
3. Lose Song. Songy and Teddy are playing around in shark infested waters with cuts on thier legs.
4. Quit being "Reactive" and start being "Proactive". Be Delta, lower your CASM, fly me to Europe and be nice about it.

[/B]

T45Flyer,

Your simple plan for success is what Delta pilots have been asking for all along. However, the pilots can only take care of item 1. Management is in control of items 2,3, and 4!

Management is asking for 40%. However, management has no plan when asked how this give back will be utilized. Would you give 40% of your paycheck to your boss if you asked him what he was gonna do with it and he said, "I don't know?"

Although you may not agree with/accept the fact, DALPA's stance is good for pilots throughout the industry. If Delta is able to weather the storm (yet to be seen), pilots flying airframes/routes similar to Delta will use Delta's pay and workrules as a starting position when renegotiating new contracts after the economy improves.

Is Delta going to declare bankruptcy or is management bluffing in order to gain concessions? Only time will tell. If bankruptcy is inevitable, management will be able to establish pay scales and work rules as they please. If it's a bluff, DALPA will have enforced the current contract and, hopefully, the rest of the pilots in the industry who gave concessions will return to their pre 9/11 workrules when the economy rebounds.
 
Re: General loosing his kool..

T45Flyer said:

My simple plan for Delta success:
1. Give back enuf pay to remain just slightly industry leading.
2. Become more productive. Give up some of those fancy work rules and log some flight time.
3. Lose Song. Songy and Teddy are playing around in shark infested waters with cuts on their [SIC] legs.
4. Quit being "Reactive" and start being "Proactive". Be Delta, lower your CASM, fly me to Europe and be nice about it.

I think I will throw up now.

I love these guys working for Southwest and the other LCC's prancing around like glee club members preaching to the people working for REAL MAJOR airlines on how to take concessions like a true pro. Let me interpret this plan as it relates to Southwest:

My simple plan for Southwest success (so far…)
1. Earn industry lowest pay for the last 15 years…competitive now only because everyone else has had to lower their pay to match yours.
2. Fly 5 legs a day, chalk the airplane, load baggage(these two I actually witnessed last week in Midway), and clean the crap out of the seat backs while the FO runs to BK for Whoppers because you are tired of crew meals consisting of peanuts and Lorna Doones.
3. Loose the “American Flag” tie you so proudly sport. You weren’t affected by 9-11 and you don’t even fly to any place affected by it. Let’s lay off the patriotic plea for attention and sympathy.
4. Be Southwest, fly me to Moline and be nice about it.
 

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