Delta Airlines the Comair Connection?

[FurloughedAgain]

ALPA's Job #1

Ace said, "No Comair or ASA pilot should have to lose their job."

I believe that hits the nail on the head. Negotiations at one airline should never have a negative impact on jobs at another carrier.

ALPA's Job Number 1 Should Always Be Jobs.

And that, in my opinion, is where ALPA missed the boat as they try to cope in this poor economy.

Jets4Jobs, the TWA/AA merger, the AMR/Eagle civil war, the 70-seat landgrabs on multiple properties... none of this is acceptable.

Why? Because we're all paying the price for ALPA's failure to see the evolution of the industry and mature along with it.

Why is ALPA not jumping up and down and screaming bloody-murder about the latest AMR TA? Why is Duane Woerth not down there each and every day with a full staff of ALPA attorneys fighting for the right of the American Eagle pilots???

ALPA's job #1 is jobs ... or if its not, then a new mission statement from Woerth is in order.

 

[smellthejeta]

Re: ALPA's Job #1

Ace said, "No Comair or ASA pilot should have to lose their job."

I believe that hits the nail on the head. Negotiations at one airline should never have a negative impact on jobs at another carrier.

ALPA's Job Number 1 Should Always Be Jobs.

And that, in my opinion, is where ALPA missed the boat as they try to cope in this poor economy.

Jets4Jobs, the TWA/AA merger, the AMR/Eagle civil war, the 70-seat landgrabs on multiple properties... none of this is acceptable.

Why? Because we're all paying the price for ALPA's failure to see the evolution of the industry and mature along with it.

Why is ALPA not jumping up and down and screaming bloody-murder about the latest AMR TA? Why is Duane Woerth not down there each and every day with a full staff of ALPA attorneys fighting for the right of the American Eagle pilots???

ALPA's job #1 is jobs ... or if its not, then a new mission statement from Woerth is in order.

Back when RJ's were known as the craze, I heard Comair was the only regional who was not bound by a scope clause, and figured out mighty fast that that company would grow like crazy. If you look at a CVG route map for DL, it's apparent that DL has very little presence and it's all Comair.

I think the "DUMBEST THING EVER DONE" was to put RJ's at the regionals. Too much infighting and animosity has been created because of that. Frankly, I think all of that was forseeable and certain persons dropped the ball. I just don't know who, and whether or not the ball dropping was intentional.

Second, I really would like to see all the regionals break away from ALPA and create their own R-ALPA, if you will. It's going to be a long time before this crap with scope clauses and J4J gets hashed out. Does one seriously think that ALPA can represent the interests of one group or another when the biggest bone of contention is who gets what flying jobs?

Oh, and J4J... I truly think this is the start of getting RJ's at the majors. Am I crazy? No. IMHO, the only way to resolve this mess is to put RJ's on the mainline property. If they're smart, once the 70/90 seaters become the craze, they'll put them at mainline and stop creating the problem they've barely begun to solve.

Also, every single pilot group would be doing themselves a favor by getting the companies to pay regional employees more. Frankly, it's a shame what some pilots will actually work for. Second, by creating higher cost regionals, it will be less advantageous to shift flying away from mainline.

 

[General Lee]

Furloughedagain,

Ofcourse nobody WANTS to lose their job, and obviously you have lost yours somewhere down the line. A fence can work both ways. If you want a 5 year fence (presuming Delta would even allow this whole thing to happen), that could hurt you. Within 3 years at Delta ---1996-1999--- we hired over 3000 pilots. Sure, that type of expansion we may never ever see again, but one never knows what this industry will do. What happens if UAL can't meet it's covenents sometime this year? What happens if Dalpa negotiates with Delta to take every 70 seater over the 57 you were allotted? What if your growth stops and our restarts again? You want a five year fence, well OK. Things are starting to get better, and we are having huge retirements due to the low Gatt rate and the possibility of the Gov't getting rid of the 30 year treasury (due to corporate backing) which may affect that Gatt rate. We had over 100 senior Capt's leave on May 1st, with 200-300 more leaving June 1st and July 1st. (upto 500 total I have heard possibly). If the economy gets better, which it will, and there is an absense of terror act (hopefully)--things MIGHT just turn around quick. Our stock has doubled in the last week, and the pension shortfall will be gone soon. The only thing we are dealing with now is some sort of a paycut, which will be negotatiated.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[avrodriverj85]

Re: ALPA's Job #1

Why is ALPA not jumping up and down and screaming bloody-murder about the latest AMR TA? Why is Duane Woerth not down there each and every day with a full staff of ALPA attorneys fighting for the right of the American Eagle pilots???


In my book Woerth is no different than Carty. Why isn't he down at AMR jumping up and down? Because he wants AA as an ALPA carrier. Why did he screw the TWA pilots? Same reason..Why isn't he at AWR jumping up and down about concessions? Because his signature is at the bottom of that TA, and he will do anything he can to save what little is left of UAL = dues for the coffers.

Can we all say "Conflict of Interest"?

 

[surplus1]

As a matter of fact, Pinnacle voluntarily implemented a policy that 80% of the new hires would be furloughed NWA guys. Comair should take a lesson from this. It's called integrity -- your company should try it sometime.

Hogwash. Think whatever you want about Comair but don't mislead others. Pinnacle did not "voluntarily implement" anything. The truth is the NWA MEC negotiated an LOA with NWAC that gave NWA furloughed pilots preferential hiring at PCL. The PCL MEC didn't even know it was happening until it was a done deal and had nothing whatever to do with it. Pinnacle management was simply told what to do by NWAC management. Consider yourself lucky that they didn't negotiate to put themselves at the top of your seniority list.

I have no problem with your supporting the "policy" (which really isn't a policy at all, it was an edict). Just don't pretend that you did it or that you did it voluntarily. You had nothing to do with it one way or the other.

Comair undoubtedly needs and could use a lot of "lessons" but you can bet your bottom dollar they won't be coming from Pinnacle.

PS. Pardon my apparent arrogance. It's nothing personal, I'm just practicing in case I ever get the chance to become a Delta pilot. One should always learn from one's master so as to avoid the possibility of cultural shock. The only difference between us is that your real master lives in MSP and my wannabe master has a seat on the DMEC and a mouthpiece named General.

PPS. Actually General is really a nice guy and means well. He just thinks he isn't and pretends he doesn't.

 

[PCL_128]

Comair undoubtedly needs and could use a lot of "lessons" but you can bet your bottom dollar they won't be coming from Pinnacle.

Despite your clarification, the above statement really shows your true colors. You call the General and FDJ arrogant, but I've never seen them make statements like yours above. You really need an attitude check. comair is no better than any other regional. Get off your high-horse.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

FWIW

For what its worth I agree with Surplus,

I have no doubt in my mind that General Lee is a good man and, more than likely, we'd get along great over a Fosters Oil Can and a dozen wings at Hooters.

Furthermore I wish every day that there were a single pilot at US Airways who was as dedicated an advocate to the furloughed pilots at that company, as the General is to the Delta furloughees. We had no such advocate. Maybe if we did US Airways wouldnt have close to 2000 pilots on furlough with hire dates all the way back to the mid 80's.

Our argument on this message-board is a disagreement spawned by the fact that we have identical goals. Think of it like Football. Our goal is to gain as much ground as possible or, barring such a gain, lose as LITTLE ground as possible.

The goal in the Airline Playoffs is no different. We each would like to see our companies grow -- its natural. The more they go the brighter our own career expectations.

If our companies are not able to grow, then we want to at least maintain the yardage we have -- dont give them an INCH. We all have a need to keep the total block hours we have at the present time. This not only keeps pilots from getting furloughed, but also prevents downgrades, prevents lineholders from becoming reserves, etc. Its good for everyone.

There are replacement players out there who are willing to play the same game for a fraction of the pay. We want to do such a good job that the owner keeps playing us even if we cost a little bit more.

These statements are true regardless of which "team" you play for. And the stakes are a lot higher than your $50 superbowl bet.
But as a result there is going to be animosity... there are going to be arguments. Worst of all, the teams are owned by the same guy and run by the same management. Its a recipe for whipsaw...and whipsaw is what happens.

General Lee is not a bad guy. He's watching out for his teammates. Nobody can blame him for that. If he didnt think that his team was the finest on the field, i'd think he was nuts. Hopefully he realizes that those of us on the other end of the field feel the same way.

As long as we're part of different teams that isnt going to change.
We're talking about peoples jobs here. Careers that, as all of you know, took years to cultivate and seconds (in some cases) to destroy. There are going to be hard feelings.

Dont take em' personally. Its just business.

 

[higherflyer]

Re: FWIW

Careers that, as all of you know, took years to cultivate and seconds (in some cases) to destroy. There are going to be hard feelings.

Dont take em' personally. Its just business.

Brilliant comments. We should all keep them in the back of our minds as we try to 'climb the airstairs' during these difficult times.

 

[tittyjet]

The General is my new hero.

 

[surplus1]

Despite your clarification, the above statement really shows your true colors. You call the General and FDJ arrogant, but I've never seen them make statements like yours above. You really need an attitude check. comair is no better than any other regional. Get off your high-horse.

Is it my high horse that you really object to or the fact that I called tittyjet's bluff?

 

[trainerjet]

Is it my high horse that you really object to or the fact that I called tittyjet's bluff?

He's just calling a spade a spade. Something you take great pride in doing on a regular basis. Except when you are looking in the mirror.

 

[Caveman]

Ace posted: "Many at Comair do not want a staple...."

I have to disagree with that statement. I have yet to talk to any Comair pilot that thinks DOH integration is appropriate let alone even remotely possible. Everyone I've discussed this with has clearly said that a staple with fences and DOH furlough protection would be just fine.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Is it my high horse that you really object to or the fact that I called tittyjet's bluff?

Surplus,

And how did calling us arrogant (yet again) relate to tittyjet's comment?

Better yet, don't answer that. I've already heard it plenty of times.

You are an intelligent and articulate poster, and I have enjoyed our discussions. However, from almost my first day on this board, I have asked you to consider the fact that our actions are fueled by rational thought, concern for our jobs, concern for our career, and (perhaps) a difference of opinion with you over what the profession should look like in the future. You, however, persist in blaming our every action on arrogance and ego. Is it beyond the realm of possibility that we and our leadership actually are thinking people, with educations and maturity, who would not risk multi-million dollar careers out of some childish sense of superiority or pettiness?

I take great care to avoid insulting anyone on this board. Despite that, my concerns for the direction in which this industry is headed is usually treated as nothing more than the rantings of an "arrogant a-hole." You, on the other hand, insult Delta pilots with almost every one of your posts, and do so with immunity from what seems to be your legions of fans. If any mainline pilot ever characterized and stereotyped regional pilots the way you do mainline pilots, there would be an outcry lasting pages. When you do it (continuosly), it is somehow ok.

Your posts, while eloquant, are often insulting. It doesn't bother me, I've been insulted in far less subtle ways. However, persistance in blaming all our actions on arrogance prevents you from analyizing the motivations behind our actions, and therefore, limits your knowledge (considerable though it may be) of the issue.

I can guess your response, because I have heard it before. In fact, you don't have to respond, I'll do a search. It had something to do with arrogance being the only rational explanation for our actions...the way you were treated in meetings....would like to believe otherwise...etc.

I don't want to start a debate over this. You can continue to post however you like. But don't be surprised if people get a little sick of being called arrogant. It's not because they are bowled over by your argument, or they are upset that "you are sassing your massa" (or some other analogy you are fond of using that indicates a lack of subsurviance). It is simply because it is insulting. And it is tiring.