Delta Airlines the Comair Connection?

[tittyjet]

Yeah, I know exactly what I'm talking about....I'm talking about the fact that both ASA and Pinnacle (my employer) did the right thing by not having their mainline guys resign their seniority. As a matter of fact, Pinnacle voluntarily implemented a policy that 80% of the new hires would be furloughed NWA guys. Comair should take a lesson from this. It's called integrity -- your company should try it sometime.

As for the jumpseat, all Comair guys are welcome on my jumpseat. Anytime.

 

[sf3boy]

How about Pinnacle taking furloughed Mesaba pilots. We have quite a few. It seems that a few years back, when big bad NWA started shifting flying to Mesaba from Express, Mesaba let numerous pilots transfer over for Express. Captains got to keep either half or a third of their seniority, depending upon which airplane they flew. Even the FO's that came over got to cut in line with a couple of classes that were already hired. There is even a LOA stating that if the situation is reversed, Express would allow Mesaba pilots to transfer "under terms and conditions no less favorable." How many furloughed Mesaba pilots have transfered to Pinnacle?

 

[tittyjet]

I don't have a problem with that -- they should be able to come over.

 

[avrodriverj85]

Hey Guys,

I was flying to ATL the other day in my 69 seat - 93,000 lb "regional jet", and in the terminal saw a DAL pilot pass by and on his flight bag he had a sticker that said; "We WILL RESTORE THE PROFESSION".

Is there a campaign over there at DAL or is it just another RJ bashing thing.?

Just curious...

 

[NYRANGERS]

Hey Guys,

I was flying to ATL the other day in my 69 seat - 93,000 lb "regional jet", and in the terminal saw a DAL pilot pass by and on his flight bag he had a sticker that said; "We WILL RESTORE THE PROFESSION".

Is there a campaign over there at DAL or is it just another RJ bashing thing.?

Just curious...

It was in reference to the 2000 contract. Try to remember that there are other issues for us. It's not always about "how can we screw the commuter guys". I think it is great that you fly a 69 seat 93,000 lb RJ. Enjoy it.

You may also see a sticker that says "Furloughed but not Forgotten". I can't wait to hear what you think this means.

Enjoy flying your 93,000 lb airplane and please do it safely. I hope you guys hold the line over at Mesaba. Comair and ASA are counting on you guys.



NYR

 

[justmeinmsp]

How about Pinnacle taking furloughed Mesaba pilots. We have quite a few. It seems that a few years back, when big bad NWA started shifting flying to Mesaba from Express, Mesaba let numerous pilots transfer over for Express. Captains got to keep either half or a third of their seniority, depending upon which airplane they flew. Even the FO's that came over got to cut in line with a couple of classes that were already hired. There is even a LOA stating that if the situation is reversed, Express would allow Mesaba pilots to transfer "under terms and conditions no less favorable." How many furloughed Mesaba pilots have transfered to Pinnacle?

Here is the official position of the PCL MEC:

1. The LOA covering this topic was negotiated as a result of EXA losing 40% of its total flying and ALL of that flying being sold to Mesaba. A financial transaction occured between MSA and NWA.
2. In this case the pilots of MSA achieved a substantial windfall in flying jobs at the immediate expense of EXA pilots.
3. The LOA states that should a similar transaction occur in the future, MSA pilots would be allowed equivalent handling as given to EXA pilots. The PCL MEC has interpreted this section to mean that PCL must enjoy a substantial gain of flying at the immediate and direct expense of MSA pilots. In other words, the agreement acts as a catastrophic insurance policy. The MSA MEC has chosen to interpret the language to mean that ANY loss of jobs at MSA during a time when PCL is hiring is enough to trigger to agreement.
4. The MSA MEC has furnished to the PCL MEC certain data relating to the movement of flying between the two companies. Once the data was reviewed by us, it became apparent that the data did not support their contention. Once this was pointed out to the MSA MEC, the data has never been mentioned again.

There is no data available to support the contention that PCL has gained to the detriment of MSA. Sure, there is plently of anecdotal evidence, but once you put in all on paper, the arguement falls apart.

The last transfer of a complete category of flying from one carrier to the other occured last year when PCL lost over 120 jobs directly to MSA when the last of our Saab flying was given to MSA. Under these circumstances, the PCL MEC has no choice but to disagree with our friends at MSA.

I hope this gives you some better information when you speak with your friend at MSA.

 

[General Lee]

Rightrudder,

What I meant about Bush and the Xmas season were two different things. During the 2000 Xmas season we tried not to take open time, but a judge in ATL said that was a no no. Then Bush said No airline could strike in the summer of 2001--I believe. It has all meshed into one. But, we did try and we were told a big NO by Pres. Bush.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sf3boy]

justmeinmsp,
Thanks for the reply. We at XJ have not been given all the info relating to this matter, ie it wasn't mass distributed. I agree that we have not lost anywhere near 40% of our flying to 9E. Good luck to ya in MECCA.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I have an interesting take on the Delta/Comair thing.

I would like to be hired by Delta, and I also tried really hard to get hired by Comair. I think they're both good airlines and I think they both pay decently. I think flying for either of them is preferable to a TON of other jobs out there.

I probably won't fly for DAL, because of the current airline situation and my age. Comair is not now one of my top choices (it was my second) because I would have to take a large pay cut for a number of years to move to Comair, but I am considering it, as I would prefer to fly PAX, and commuting to Comair would be relatively easy for me.

What I think the best solution for all airline pilots would be for each carrier brand to OneList, with all aircraft, from 19 seats on up to be owned by the major airline, and each pilot to be a pilot of the major airline, but, obviously, that is a big change. I think this is where ALPA missed the boat years ago.

Cliff
GRB

 

[ACE]

Unfortuantly cliff, that is easier said than done. I wish there were an easy answer. It would make sense to all become one and stop the whipsaw. The problem is how to accomplish it. Many at Comair do not want a staple and Delta does not want integration. I personally think a staple would be fine as long as there is a fence. No flowbacks until such and such a date. And I mean a date 5 years from now. No Comair or ASA pilot should have to lose their job. You will not see one list though for years if ever.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

ALPA's Job #1

Ace said, "No Comair or ASA pilot should have to lose their job."

I believe that hits the nail on the head. Negotiations at one airline should never have a negative impact on jobs at another carrier.

ALPA's Job Number 1 Should Always Be Jobs.

And that, in my opinion, is where ALPA missed the boat as they try to cope in this poor economy.

Jets4Jobs, the TWA/AA merger, the AMR/Eagle civil war, the 70-seat landgrabs on multiple properties... none of this is acceptable.

Why? Because we're all paying the price for ALPA's failure to see the evolution of the industry and mature along with it.

Why is ALPA not jumping up and down and screaming bloody-murder about the latest AMR TA? Why is Duane Woerth not down there each and every day with a full staff of ALPA attorneys fighting for the right of the American Eagle pilots???

ALPA's job #1 is jobs ... or if its not, then a new mission statement from Woerth is in order.

 

[smellthejeta]

Re: ALPA's Job #1

Ace said, "No Comair or ASA pilot should have to lose their job."

I believe that hits the nail on the head. Negotiations at one airline should never have a negative impact on jobs at another carrier.

ALPA's Job Number 1 Should Always Be Jobs.

And that, in my opinion, is where ALPA missed the boat as they try to cope in this poor economy.

Jets4Jobs, the TWA/AA merger, the AMR/Eagle civil war, the 70-seat landgrabs on multiple properties... none of this is acceptable.

Why? Because we're all paying the price for ALPA's failure to see the evolution of the industry and mature along with it.

Why is ALPA not jumping up and down and screaming bloody-murder about the latest AMR TA? Why is Duane Woerth not down there each and every day with a full staff of ALPA attorneys fighting for the right of the American Eagle pilots???

ALPA's job #1 is jobs ... or if its not, then a new mission statement from Woerth is in order.

Back when RJ's were known as the craze, I heard Comair was the only regional who was not bound by a scope clause, and figured out mighty fast that that company would grow like crazy. If you look at a CVG route map for DL, it's apparent that DL has very little presence and it's all Comair.

I think the "DUMBEST THING EVER DONE" was to put RJ's at the regionals. Too much infighting and animosity has been created because of that. Frankly, I think all of that was forseeable and certain persons dropped the ball. I just don't know who, and whether or not the ball dropping was intentional.

Second, I really would like to see all the regionals break away from ALPA and create their own R-ALPA, if you will. It's going to be a long time before this crap with scope clauses and J4J gets hashed out. Does one seriously think that ALPA can represent the interests of one group or another when the biggest bone of contention is who gets what flying jobs?

Oh, and J4J... I truly think this is the start of getting RJ's at the majors. Am I crazy? No. IMHO, the only way to resolve this mess is to put RJ's on the mainline property. If they're smart, once the 70/90 seaters become the craze, they'll put them at mainline and stop creating the problem they've barely begun to solve.

Also, every single pilot group would be doing themselves a favor by getting the companies to pay regional employees more. Frankly, it's a shame what some pilots will actually work for. Second, by creating higher cost regionals, it will be less advantageous to shift flying away from mainline.

 

[General Lee]

Furloughedagain,

Ofcourse nobody WANTS to lose their job, and obviously you have lost yours somewhere down the line. A fence can work both ways. If you want a 5 year fence (presuming Delta would even allow this whole thing to happen), that could hurt you. Within 3 years at Delta ---1996-1999--- we hired over 3000 pilots. Sure, that type of expansion we may never ever see again, but one never knows what this industry will do. What happens if UAL can't meet it's covenents sometime this year? What happens if Dalpa negotiates with Delta to take every 70 seater over the 57 you were allotted? What if your growth stops and our restarts again? You want a five year fence, well OK. Things are starting to get better, and we are having huge retirements due to the low Gatt rate and the possibility of the Gov't getting rid of the 30 year treasury (due to corporate backing) which may affect that Gatt rate. We had over 100 senior Capt's leave on May 1st, with 200-300 more leaving June 1st and July 1st. (upto 500 total I have heard possibly). If the economy gets better, which it will, and there is an absense of terror act (hopefully)--things MIGHT just turn around quick. Our stock has doubled in the last week, and the pension shortfall will be gone soon. The only thing we are dealing with now is some sort of a paycut, which will be negotatiated.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[avrodriverj85]

Re: ALPA's Job #1

Why is ALPA not jumping up and down and screaming bloody-murder about the latest AMR TA? Why is Duane Woerth not down there each and every day with a full staff of ALPA attorneys fighting for the right of the American Eagle pilots???


In my book Woerth is no different than Carty. Why isn't he down at AMR jumping up and down? Because he wants AA as an ALPA carrier. Why did he screw the TWA pilots? Same reason..Why isn't he at AWR jumping up and down about concessions? Because his signature is at the bottom of that TA, and he will do anything he can to save what little is left of UAL = dues for the coffers.

Can we all say "Conflict of Interest"?

 

[surplus1]

As a matter of fact, Pinnacle voluntarily implemented a policy that 80% of the new hires would be furloughed NWA guys. Comair should take a lesson from this. It's called integrity -- your company should try it sometime.

Hogwash. Think whatever you want about Comair but don't mislead others. Pinnacle did not "voluntarily implement" anything. The truth is the NWA MEC negotiated an LOA with NWAC that gave NWA furloughed pilots preferential hiring at PCL. The PCL MEC didn't even know it was happening until it was a done deal and had nothing whatever to do with it. Pinnacle management was simply told what to do by NWAC management. Consider yourself lucky that they didn't negotiate to put themselves at the top of your seniority list.

I have no problem with your supporting the "policy" (which really isn't a policy at all, it was an edict). Just don't pretend that you did it or that you did it voluntarily. You had nothing to do with it one way or the other.

Comair undoubtedly needs and could use a lot of "lessons" but you can bet your bottom dollar they won't be coming from Pinnacle.

PS. Pardon my apparent arrogance. It's nothing personal, I'm just practicing in case I ever get the chance to become a Delta pilot. One should always learn from one's master so as to avoid the possibility of cultural shock. The only difference between us is that your real master lives in MSP and my wannabe master has a seat on the DMEC and a mouthpiece named General.

PPS. Actually General is really a nice guy and means well. He just thinks he isn't and pretends he doesn't.

 

[PCL_128]

Comair undoubtedly needs and could use a lot of "lessons" but you can bet your bottom dollar they won't be coming from Pinnacle.

Despite your clarification, the above statement really shows your true colors. You call the General and FDJ arrogant, but I've never seen them make statements like yours above. You really need an attitude check. comair is no better than any other regional. Get off your high-horse.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

FWIW

For what its worth I agree with Surplus,

I have no doubt in my mind that General Lee is a good man and, more than likely, we'd get along great over a Fosters Oil Can and a dozen wings at Hooters.

Furthermore I wish every day that there were a single pilot at US Airways who was as dedicated an advocate to the furloughed pilots at that company, as the General is to the Delta furloughees. We had no such advocate. Maybe if we did US Airways wouldnt have close to 2000 pilots on furlough with hire dates all the way back to the mid 80's.

Our argument on this message-board is a disagreement spawned by the fact that we have identical goals. Think of it like Football. Our goal is to gain as much ground as possible or, barring such a gain, lose as LITTLE ground as possible.

The goal in the Airline Playoffs is no different. We each would like to see our companies grow -- its natural. The more they go the brighter our own career expectations.

If our companies are not able to grow, then we want to at least maintain the yardage we have -- dont give them an INCH. We all have a need to keep the total block hours we have at the present time. This not only keeps pilots from getting furloughed, but also prevents downgrades, prevents lineholders from becoming reserves, etc. Its good for everyone.

There are replacement players out there who are willing to play the same game for a fraction of the pay. We want to do such a good job that the owner keeps playing us even if we cost a little bit more.

These statements are true regardless of which "team" you play for. And the stakes are a lot higher than your $50 superbowl bet.
But as a result there is going to be animosity... there are going to be arguments. Worst of all, the teams are owned by the same guy and run by the same management. Its a recipe for whipsaw...and whipsaw is what happens.

General Lee is not a bad guy. He's watching out for his teammates. Nobody can blame him for that. If he didnt think that his team was the finest on the field, i'd think he was nuts. Hopefully he realizes that those of us on the other end of the field feel the same way.

As long as we're part of different teams that isnt going to change.
We're talking about peoples jobs here. Careers that, as all of you know, took years to cultivate and seconds (in some cases) to destroy. There are going to be hard feelings.

Dont take em' personally. Its just business.

 

[higherflyer]

Re: FWIW

Careers that, as all of you know, took years to cultivate and seconds (in some cases) to destroy. There are going to be hard feelings.

Dont take em' personally. Its just business.

Brilliant comments. We should all keep them in the back of our minds as we try to 'climb the airstairs' during these difficult times.

 

[tittyjet]

The General is my new hero.

 

[surplus1]

Despite your clarification, the above statement really shows your true colors. You call the General and FDJ arrogant, but I've never seen them make statements like yours above. You really need an attitude check. comair is no better than any other regional. Get off your high-horse.

Is it my high horse that you really object to or the fact that I called tittyjet's bluff?