Delta 767 that landed on taxiway at KATL

[dojetdriver]

After the actual facts of the situation were reviewed by flight ops, the faa, and alpa... it was determined to not be intentional.

I've heard about 3 different stories in regards to the guy that got sick... still don't know which one to believe. The people that had the facts and the actual reports were the ones that determined it to not be an intentional violation. So what does that tell you?

Kinda funny, seems as if at the "other place", people that seem to have a lot of knowledge of DAL said that he was sick before they departed, and his condition worsened enroute.

In fact, here's the direct quote;

The 3rd pilot was sick before the flight....his condition worsened through the flight up to the point of needing to declare a med emergency later in the flight.

Go do a search there and see who wrote it.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Kinda funny, seems as if at the "other place", people that seem to have a lot of knowledge of DAL said that he was sick before they departed, and his condition worsened enroute.

In fact, here's the direct quote;



Go do a search there and see who wrote it.

I've flown recently with some head flight ops guys... The level of "not feeling well" has widely varied. Everything from just simply not feeling well to actual vomit.

I'm not sure what the real story is... You sure seem to know.

 

[dojetdriver]

I'm not sure what the real story is... You sure seem to know.

Nope, don't claim to know anything. Just going off what guys that work at DAL say that seem to think they know a lot. As well as seem to think it really wasn't a big deal since nobody got killed.

These guys (and girl) were lucky, PERIOD.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

These guys (and girl) were lucky, PERIOD.

Anybody said otherwise? You sure seem to think so...It was an embarrassing incident that also highlighted other issues with our crew rest augment as well as visibility problems in ATL during certain lighting conditions.

Was it by great skill and thousands of hours that they didn't mow over one of the psychotic tug drivers that roam around ATL? Absolutely not. I know I've never argued otherwise.... and I havent seen anyone else try to say this. They sure screwed up- something can be learned from every accident, though! The crew cheated death... do we really need to hang them further? How many times have we cheated death through our careers? Guaranteed they won't be screwing something like this up again... The next issue is what can be learned from it....

Only you and some other regional drivers on this and "the other forum" seem to think that we don't think it was a big deal.... then try to make some form of childish compensation from it. You saw us going back and forth on "the big thread" about it trying to figure out what happened and how we can go about not making the same mistake.

 

[dojetdriver]

Anybody said otherwise? You sure seem to think so...It was an embarrassing incident that also highlighted other issues with our crew rest augment as well as visibility problems in ATL during certain lighting conditions.

Nope, but the prevailing mentality seems to be that "it wasn't really a big deal since nobody got killed". Sorry, just can't buy off on that rationale.

Was it by great skill and thousands of hours that they didn't mow over one of the psychotic tug drivers that roam around ATL? Absolutely not. I know I've never argued otherwise.... and I havent seen anyone else try to say this. They sure screwed up- something can be learned from every accident, though! The crew cheated death... do we really need to hang them further? How many times have we cheated death through our careers? Guaranteed they won't be screwing something like this up again... The next issue is what can be learned from it....

Yep, agree with all that, especially with the "sure screwed up" part. I'll make the same point I made with you before, if this thing got HALF the scrutiny that DAL(N) got, you REALLY think the outcome would have been the same?

Only you and some other regional drivers on this and "the other forum" seem to think that we don't think it was a big deal.... then try to make some form of childish compensation from it. You saw us going back and forth on "the big thread" about it trying to figure out what happened and how we can go about not making the same mistake.

See above. I wonder if you were still a "regional driver" and not lucky to be where your are today if your thoughts would still be the same?

"Childish compensation"? Please

You have a Merry Christmas, and fly safe.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Nope, but the prevailing mentality seems to be that "it wasn't really a big deal since nobody got killed". Sorry, just can't buy off on that rationale.



Yep, agree with all that, especially with the "sure screwed up" part. I'll make the same point I made with you before, if this thing got HALF the scrutiny that DAL(N) got, you REALLY think the outcome would have been the same?



See above. I wonder if you were still a "regional driver" and not lucky to be where your are today if your thoughts would still be the same?

"Childish compensation"? Please

You have a Merry Christmas, and fly safe.

I don't buy off on your rationale either...

If it did get the same media play, which it would never... people dont understand the difference between a taxiway and a runway.... the outcome would still have been the same.


When I was still a regional driver, I had the EXACT same mindset. Look back at my old posts... I've been on this site since 2004. 9E 3701.... they reaped what they sowed- my understanding of what happens with the CRJ when you disrespect her at high altitude sure was heightened though. OH 191... again, they reaped what they sowed. Poor situational awareness along with not checking that rediculously unreliable AHRS prior to advancing the power. AA in Cali- again, poor situational awareness, not confirming what waypoint you're selecting, and rushing to complete the mission. AA 587... Who in their right mind jabs a rudder like that? Colgan- Who in their right mind pulls back at the onset of a stick shaker? Shall I go on? You won't find me being hypocritical on this stuff. Wrecks are wrecks and we've gotta learn from them and find some benefit from what happened.

These recent AA and DAL mishaps (the taxiway one... NWA188 is in a whole different farm) highlight fatigue issues at least from the outset of the investigation.

THe recent regional accidents you combine marginal training departments with fatigue. Besides, what can requiring higher time guys to get hired harm? What is so wrong with that? The worst issues at my regional were marginal training combined with low time guys. (low time captains too...)

The biggest issues at mainline tend to come from the opposite... "weve been around the block, so we'll be fine" along with get-there-itis. My personal feelings on the AA training department are just that- I think they have some long running procedural issues that are also cultural.

If you don't buy the childish compensation thing, just look at the latest thread title to pop up on the regional forum on the AA flight.

Merry Christmas... off the movies I go!

 

[dojetdriver]

I don't buy off on your rationale either...

If it did get the same media play, which it would never... people dont understand the difference between a taxiway and a runway.... the outcome would still have been the same.

So you think that if the DAL(S) incident got bombarded all over the media, that the crew members wouldn't have faced the SAME, or similar actions that DAL(N) did?

I'd have to disagree with you on that one.

These recent AA and DAL mishaps (the taxiway one... NWA188 is in a whole different farm) highlight fatigue issues at least from the outset of the investigation.

Yep, won't disagree that fatigue was a factor in landing on a taxi way. But going by what I quoted above about the sick crew member, you think that could have been prevented? After all, I did quote somebody that works at DAL, and seems to be in the know. Or at least thinks they are.

THe recent regional accidents you combine marginal training departments with fatigue. Besides, what can requiring higher time guys to get hired harm? What is so wrong with that? The worst issues at my regional were marginal training combined with low time guys. (low time captains too...)

Never argued those points. But all it does is bring us round and round in a circular argument. AA has high time pilots, I would guess their training is good, wouldn't you? And those pilots STILL killed a bunch of people. They can do it just as good as low time pilots can.

The biggest issues at mainline tend to come from the opposite... "weve been around the block, so we'll be fine" along with get-there-itis. My personal feelings on the AA training department are just that- I think they have some long running procedural issues that are also cultural.

Do you have any facts to back your personal feeling? Just curious.

If you don't buy the childish compensation thing, just look at the latest thread title to pop up on the regional forum on the AA flight.

Merry Christmas... off the movies I go!

The "childish compensation" comment didn't make sense the first time you wrote it, still doesn't here.

 

[Ticker]

They were retrained and have been back on the line for a month or so now.

Yup. As it should be IMHO. "The truth shall set you free" as it were.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

So you think that if the DAL(S) incident got bombarded all over the media, that the crew members wouldn't have faced the SAME, or similar actions that DAL(N) did?

I'd have to disagree with you on that one.



Yep, won't disagree that fatigue was a factor in landing on a taxi way. But going by what I quoted above about the sick crew member, you think that could have been prevented? After all, I did quote somebody that works at DAL, and seems to be in the know. Or at least thinks they are.



Never argued those points. But all it does is bring us round and round in a circular argument. AA has high time pilots, I would guess their training is good, wouldn't you? And those pilots STILL killed a bunch of people. They can do it just as good as low time pilots can.



Do you have any facts to back your personal feeling? Just curious.



The "childish compensation" comment didn't make sense the first time you wrote it, still doesn't here.

You're one of those people that just writes the opposite because you like saying it, right?


1. Absolutely. They told the truth. They were found to have not intentionally violated any regs... that is what the final outcome was from the ASAP committee. That is what stands. I'm sorry if you can't understand that. Besides, an incident like this where they didn't run something over will NOT get much media attention. Your argument is flawed from the outset.

2. The incident wouldn't have happened without the sick crewmember. Myself and a number of others on that site are "in the know." Doesn't mean you get the full or correct story all the time. I've heard multiple versions of the condition of the LCA at the outset of the flight. The conclusion of the ASAP committee stands as evidence to what was found in regards to the guy's condition as well as the actions of the other crewmembers.

3. Different problems with different companies lead to the same result. Mishaps and potentially fatalities. Different things need to be corrected at different levels- most of the time it comes down to how judgements are derived in flight. Low time can be just as damaging as poorly understood procedures or any number of things. The issue is "how do we fix it?" Raising minimums and improving training on the low end is a good thing.... improving training and procedures as well as minimizing complacancy on the high end is another.

4. Like I said, my personal feelings on AA's policies and procedures are just that... personal. I've seen their checklists, and I know how their cockpits are run. I consider it inefficient and overproceduralized. Seeing their 757 checklist made my head hurt. Again, these are my personal feelings and those alone. Take a look for yourself and make your own judgement.

5. The childish compensation I speak of is that it is like some kid that got in trouble for screwing something up seeing someone else do the same thing and jumping up and down pointing saying "see they did it! they did it! i'm telling!" Grow up.

 

[dojetdriver]

You're one of those people that just writes the opposite because you like saying it, right?

Ah........no

1. Absolutely. They told the truth. They were found to have not intentionally violated any regs... that is what the final outcome was from the ASAP committee. That is what stands. I'm sorry if you can't understand that. Besides, an incident like this where they didn't run something over will NOT get much media attention. Your argument is flawed from the outset.

2. The incident wouldn't have happened without the sick crewmember. Myself and a number of others on that site are "in the know." Doesn't mean you get the full or correct story all the time. I've heard multiple versions of the condition of the LCA at the outset of the flight. The conclusion of the ASAP committee stands as evidence to what was found in regards to the guy's condition as well as the actions of the other crewmembers.

3. Different problems with different companies lead to the same result. Mishaps and potentially fatalities. Different things need to be corrected at different levels- most of the time it comes down to how judgements are derived in flight. Low time can be just as damaging as poorly understood procedures or any number of things. The issue is "how do we fix it?" Raising minimums and improving training on the low end is a good thing.... improving training and procedures as well as minimizing complacancy on the high end is another.

4. Like I said, my personal feelings on AA's policies and procedures are just that... personal. I've seen their checklists, and I know how their cockpits are run. I consider it inefficient and overproceduralized. Seeing their 757 checklist made my head hurt. Again, these are my personal feelings and those alone. Take a look for yourself and make your own judgement.

5. The childish compensation I speak of is that it is like some kid that got in trouble for screwing something up seeing someone else do the same thing and jumping up and down pointing saying "see they did it! they did it! i'm telling!" Grow up.

As far as the rest, we'll just have to agree to disagree, especially the last part.