Delivering single engine aircraft to Europe and beyond?

[Flightjock30]

We recently spoke about how dumb a pilot was to fly over Lake Michigan at night in a single engine aircraft. My next question is.....when a Cessna 172 is manufactured in the US and someone in Germany wants to buy it does a ferry pilot have to fly it all the way from Kansas to Germany? If sooo, is it not EXTREMELY risky and dangerous to make an atlantic crossing???? I mean even if you have a raft, etc. By the time help arrives in the arctic waters of the North Atlantic you will be long gone.
Sorry if I sound ignorant! I suppose they could ship these European purchases by boat over.

 

[mzaharis]

Apparently, most small Cessnas are crated up and shipped, but here's an exception.

Read this and tremble in fear . . .

http://www.cessna150-152.com/transatlantic.htm

 

[garf12]

Not something I would want to do. Here is an article about someone ferrying a 152 from America to South Africa.

http://www.cessna150-152.com/transatlantic.htm

 

[wrxpilot]

We recently spoke about how dumb a pilot was to fly over Lake Michigan at night in a single engine aircraft. My next question is.....when a Cessna 172 is manufactured in the US and someone in Germany wants to buy it does a ferry pilot have to fly it all the way from Kansas to Germany? If sooo, is it not EXTREMELY risky and dangerous to make an atlantic crossing???? I mean even if you have a raft, etc. By the time help arrives in the arctic waters of the North Atlantic you will be long gone.
Sorry if I sound ignorant! I suppose they could ship these European purchases by boat over.

Just a lowtime PPL's view here:

I think there's a difference between flying over an ocean and flying over a lake. For example, we have a very large body of water here in South FL called Lake Okeechobee. I will not fly across it such that I can't glide to land, so I end up adding a little bit of time to skirt across the edge of the lake. When I flew to the keys, I flew along US1 (not that landing on US1 would always be the best option, powerlines suck). But I also flew to the Bahamas, which required flying over the Atlantic and being out of glide range for a little while. There was obviously no way to go around the ocean, but I did pick the shortest route from the FL coast to the closest Bahaman island. I just island hopped from there to my destination.

The point is, if I'm going from Point A-B in a piston single and have a choice between a land route (or being high enough to glide to land) or going over a body of water w/ ditching as the only option, I'll take the land/glide route. It's the minimal risk for the situation. For the Bahamas, the shortest route across the water was the minimal risk.

I'm a low time private pilot, so I wouldn't feel comfortable making an ocean crossing (obviously much more dangerous than a simple Bahamas trip). But I think it would be fun, and certainly wouldn't look down on anybody doing it if they had the experience and equipment to do it right. I think someday I'd enjoy doing it!

 

[shamrock]

There used to be a guy that wrote for Plane & Pilot magazine (Bill Cox?) that ferried all sorts of planes all over the world. I haven't read that mag in a while so I don't know if he still writes about it, but there seemed to be a lot of preparation involved with overwater deliveries.

 

[414Flyer]

Actually a lot of single engine planes are ferried over to Europe. I have had a couple calls myself about doing some of those flights, however I am still rather nervous about doing it in a single and I only have done one atlantic crossing, which was Scotland - Iceland - Greenland - Canada in a Cheyenne II.

A ferry pilot I know once flew a C-172 16 hours straight, from canada to england, hand flying the whole way.

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

A lot of aircraft are ferried over the ponds but I wouldn't say it is either extremely risky or dangerous... if you are prepared. I'm sure it goes without saying but a lot of prep work goes into making a flight like that. And not that I'd wish to ditch anywhere but, if you think about it, you do have some things going for you. You know right where the terrain is, sea level, and you know about what it will look like. I say about because you might not be able to see the swell patterns and wave heights, depending on wx and time of day. But think about having to stick one in somewhere at night or in poor wx... there is a lot of the country where your odds of surviving that are no better than or worse than surviving a ditching. JMHO...

cc

 

[User546]

We recently spoke about how dumb a pilot was to fly over Lake Michigan at night in a single engine aircraft.

Not necessarily dumb, he did fly at a point that was only about 80 miles wide, and people do it everyday. Airplanes fly over water just as easy as they do over land.

What the pilot lacked was proper flight planning, and good operating practice. Last I checked those airplanes hold enough fuel to fly over the 80 mile point multiple times on one tank. What he did wrong was trying to brave the crossing of the lake with obviously marginal fuel. His gamble didn't pay off.

All that to say, it's not dumb to fly across the lake in a single-engine. It's dumb to fly across a lake in a single-engine airplane with negligble fuel.

Go to AirJourney.com and you'll see that single-engine airplanes frequently make trips across the Atlantic.

 

[Lead Sled]

We recently spoke about how dumb a pilot was to fly over Lake Michigan at night in a single engine aircraft. My next question is.....when a Cessna 172 is manufactured in the US and someone in Germany wants to buy it does a ferry pilot have to fly it all the way from Kansas to Germany? If sooo, is it not EXTREMELY risky and dangerous to make an atlantic crossing???? I mean even if you have a raft, etc. By the time help arrives in the arctic waters of the North Atlantic you will be long gone.
Sorry if I sound ignorant! I suppose they could ship these European purchases by boat over.

There are probably hundreds of crossings each year made by SEL aircraft. (And there are also a few ditchings each year as well.) Sure there's a risk, but the guys who do it are for the most part professionals and properly equipted. From an aircraft point of view, it's really not all that demanding - the longest over water leg is only about 600 miles.

'Sled

 

[Lead Sled]

A lot of aircraft are ferried over the ponds but I wouldn't say it is either extremely risky or dangerous... if you are prepared. I'm sure it goes without saying but a lot of prep work goes into making a flight like that. And not that I'd wish to ditch anywhere but, if you think about it, you do have some things going for you. You know right where the terrain is, sea level, and you know about what it will look like. I say about because you might not be able to see the swell patterns and wave heights, depending on wx and time of day. But think about having to stick one in somewhere at night or in poor wx... there is a lot of the country where your odds of surviving that are no better than or worse than surviving a ditching. JMHO...

Do you remember the incident several years ago where the husband and wife were flying their Twin Comanche to Europe and flew it onto the Greenland Ice Cap? It is truely an amaizing story. The were sitting there in the clouds, fat dumb and happy, on autopilot then all of a sudden they said that it got a little turbulent. A few moments later, the engines stopped turning. At that point, the guy and his wife undid their belts, opened the door, and stepped out on the wing and onto the icepack. If I remember right, they had been cruising at 16,000', but I really don't remember for sure. Great story about a couple of very lucky people.

'Sled

 

[mzaharis]

Do you remember the incident several years ago where the husband and wife were flying their Twin Comanche to Europe and flew it onto the Greenland Ice Cap? It is truely an amaizing story. The were sitting there in the clouds, fat dumb and happy, on autopilot then all of a sudden they said that it got a little turbulent. A few moments later, the engines stopped turning. At that point, the guy and his wife undid their belts, opened the door, and stepped out on the wing and onto the icepack. If I remember right, they had been cruising at 16,000', but I really don't remember for sure. Great story about a couple of very lucky people.

'Sled

http://afsafety.af.mil/magazine/htdocs/maymag98/tiwrecv.htm

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

Do you remember the incident several years ago where the husband and wife were flying their Twin Comanche to Europe and flew it onto the Greenland Ice Cap? It is truely an amaizing story. The were sitting there in the clouds, fat dumb and happy, on autopilot then all of a sudden they said that it got a little turbulent. A few moments later, the engines stopped turning. At that point, the guy and his wife undid their belts, opened the door, and stepped out on the wing and onto the icepack. If I remember right, they had been cruising at 16,000', but I really don't remember for sure. Great story about a couple of very lucky people.

'Sled

Thanks for the link, mzaharis! I had forgotten all about this until you mentioned it 'Sled. It is an amazing story. What an eerie feeling that must have been! They were very lucky.

All this talk about ferry flights and crossing the pond made me think of the guy that ferried that agwagon, SFO-HNL-PPG-NLK-SYD I think, and got lost over the pacific between pago pago and norfolk. An Air New Zealand driver, Gordon Vette was able to roughly fix his position and then fly a box pattern on him to locate him and give him a heading to norfolk. He made it in on fumes... he had been in the air over 23 hours. They made a movie of it some years ago. He was another fortunate individual.

cc

 

[Rick1128]

For the icecap story, it is not the first time, nor will it be the last time. During WWII a PBY was flying off Greenland in the clouds, when their airspeed dropped rapidly to zero. Full power was applied to no avail. The were on a Glacier.

The north atlantic is not too bad. There is a company in California that ferries SE Cessnas to Australia all the time. Its like 40 to 50 hours. SFO to PHNL is over 20 hours in a 172. o Thank you!

 

[Cat Driver]

Single engine aircraft ferry flights across the ocean is all about risk management.

Me I would not risk it.

Cat Driver

 

[BD King]

Single engine aircraft ferry flights across the ocean is all about risk management.

Me I would not risk it.

Cat Driver

That's because we have a head full of gray hair.

 

[Cat Driver]

BD.... even with two engines just looking at all that ice in the ocean off Greenland is kind of uncomfortable, I can't imagine force landing in it.

C.D.

 

[Lead Sled]

BD.... even with two engines just looking at all that ice in the ocean off Greenland is kind of uncomfortable, I can't imagine force landing in it.

I've got a few north Atlantic crossings - from the pacific nothwest we normally fly to Fro' Bay then on across. We have an annunciator that comes on when the fuel transfer valves cycle - just about the time we're "well over water". Even though I know it's coming it still comes close to inducing a coronary event. You're settled in, it's verrry early in the morning, the lights are dim, and bam - the master caution along with the fuel transfer light. It gets you every time.

'Sled

 

[BD King]

Ah Chuck,

There is a long story. But will be cut short tonight. As you are well aware, there is a system called TKS, specifically for anti-ice. I owned part of the company that installed the first kit for certification in the US. It was on a 206, and God forbid, it worked........I was asked to take the airplane to England and get the certification there. Said yes, BUT I want a new engine in the airplane. Before that happened a connecting rod broke. The airplane sunk in the Potomic.........To make a very long story short, if you are flying the North Atlantic, take along an anvil. Why? If you have to ditch, grab the anvil and get the ordeal over with.

 

[typhoonpilot]

There used to be a guy that wrote for Plane & Pilot magazine (Bill Cox?) that ferried all sorts of planes all over the world. I haven't read that mag in a while so I don't know if he still writes about it, but there seemed to be a lot of preparation involved with overwater deliveries.

That is the first thing I thought of when reading this thread as well. Bill used to do some work for the dealer I worked for in California. I liked reading his stories about flying across the Atlantic. They are worth reading if you can find the back issues, circa 1986. Other publications have done articles on the process from time to time.

When I was working in Taiwan a Piper Cub was parked in Kaohsiung one day. That being a very rare sight in Kaohsiung, I walked over and met the pilots. A husband and wife team flying around the world in their Piper Cub. They had their Pacific crossing to go yet, but had already come around to Taiwan in an Easterly direction.


Typhoonpilot

 

[Flyin Tony]

Max Conrad (sp) would do it in PA18's.
Here is some other flights he did.

Casablanca, Morocco - Los Angeles
Distance 7,668sm
Time 58 hours 38 minutes
PA24-250

Casablanca, Morocco - El Paso
Distance 6,921sm
Time 56 hours 26 minutes
PA24-180

Capetown South Africa - St. Petersburg FL
Distance 7,879sm
Time 56 hours 8 minutes
PA30