Declaring Minimum Fuel

[rumpletumbler]

So declaring minimum fuel means that if you get any delay you are likely to have a fuel related emergency. Whatever happened to VFR/IFR reserves? Wouldn't you be visited by your friendly neighborhood fed if you declared minimum fuel? If not, why?

 

[Pedro]

VFR/IFR Reserves are for planning purposes. You may encounter stronger headwinds or vectors enroute, which would increase the amount of fuel used durng the flight. So whe you are getting close to destination you may have to declare min fuel, with no visit from the feds. Now if your min fuel situation turns into a fuel emergency, and then into an accident, then the feds may want to look into your flight plan and fuel.

 

[Rattler71]

So declaring minimum fuel means that if you get any delay you are likely to have a fuel related emergency. Whatever happened to VFR/IFR reserves? Wouldn't you be visited by your friendly neighborhood fed if you declared minimum fuel? If not, why?

Declaring minimum fuel means you used more fuel than you planned and you are trying to stay alive. If the flight is at that point, the feds are the last thing on my mind. l



Rattler71

 

[rumpletumbler]

If someone declared minimum fuel then I would think they were pushing it for no reason unless you had no other viable alternate. Why wouldn't you stop and get some gas rather than push it that close?

 

[Bluto]

Have you ever flown in actual instrument conditions when the weather is bad just about everywhere? It sounds like you haven't. Stopping for gas is a great idea when you're poking holes in a Cessna. That's not always a viable option when you're flying passengers around in a 121 environment. Minimum fuel is simply an advisory to ATC and often nothing changes much operationally. It just gives them a heads-up that if they mess with you too much more (holds, vectors, etc.) then you may have to declare an emergency. It happens. Things are different when you're doing a x-c in a 172.

 

[Rattler71]

If someone declared minimum fuel then I would think they were pushing it for no reason unless you had no other viable alternate. Why wouldn't you stop and get some gas rather than push it that close?

well, there is always a reason that seems great at the time.
And you obviously have no idea of the pressure put on you as a Captain(self-induced or company).

Rattler71

 

[Gulfstream 200]

much can be aircraft dependent...

for example - 20 series Learjets or other turbojets - a few lengthy low level vectors and you go from IFR reserves to "minimum fuel" pretty quick.

luckily enough, many controllers understand this and are usually pretty helpful.......at least from my experience.

 

[Ty Webb]

Declaring minimum fuel means you used more fuel than you planned and you are trying to stay alive. If the flight is at that point, the feds are the last thing on my mind. l
Rattler71

Actually, "minimum fuel" is more of a "heads up" to ATC that you can't take any more delays . . . . or you will then have to declare an emergency.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5-85. MINIMUM FUEL ADVISORY[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]a. Pilot --[/font]

1. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Advise ATC of your minimum fuel status when your fuel supply has reached a state where, upon reaching destination, you cannot accept any undue delay.
   
   [/font]
2. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Be aware this is not an emergency situation, but merely an advisory that indicates an emergency situation is possible should any undue delay occur.
   
   [/font]
3. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Be aware a minimum fuel advisory does not imply a need for traffic priority.
   
   [/font]
4. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If the remaining usable fuel supply suggests the need for traffic priority to ensure a safe landing you should declare an emergency account low fuel and report fuel remaining in minutes. (Reference -- Pilot/Controller Glossary, Fuel Remaining).[/font]

 

[BeckyAnne]

As someone already stated those who fly older jets can reach a minimum fuel situation fairly quick.

I’ve done it twice and both times ATC handled it as if it was routine and gave us no problems infact a USAir flight even offered to continue holding so ATC could get us down quicker which he did and we thanked them.

 

[User546]

We've had to declare min fuel before which turned into a fuel emergency after not receiving a lot of cooperation from controllers, and fortunately we weren't visited by the local Feds, since we did have to cut in the way of 6 airplanes coming into an international airport.

IFR/VFR reserves like everyone put is for flight planning purposes. Unfortunately, the higher up you go typically the stronger the winds get (to a point.) And typically when you go from East to West, you have a pretty good headwind or crosswind - and the stronger that wind is the more fuel it takes for you to get to your destination.

And on top of that, what happened to us was, we were coming in on an arrival to our airport, and they dropped us down from FL410 to 15,000 feet over 100 miles out from the airport. We were already starting to see it was going to be close up at 410, but when we got dropped that low we knew we were in trouble. We tried negotiating with Center and everyone we talked to about stayin as high as possible for as long as possible, but they had to have us down. Finally, as we arrived in the airport area, with our yellow caution lights going off, they tried putting us #6 for the runway behind a bunch of airline traffic. They told us to expect about a 25 mile each direction downwind and final leg, so we had to declare a we got landing priority over the rest of the traffic.

My whole point of this post is to just show you a typical scenario where you could have plenty of fuel for your trip, but circumstances can take over and leave you cutting it close!

 

[JAFI]

We've had to declare min fuel before, and fortunately we weren't visited by the local Feds, ...

My whole point of this post is to just show you a typical scenario where you could have plenty of fuel for your trip, but circumstances can take over and leave you cutting it close!

So you handled the situation and landed safely. No reason for a visit from your local Feds... A Min Fuel call doesn't even raise an eyebrow.

A Min fuel call is just a heads up to ATC. That doesn't mean you will be vectored to be number one for the approach. If ATC can, they will. Sometimes when the winds are stronger than planned or heavy traffic, there can be many aircraft all with Min Fuel. And even with a Min Fuel call at a busy airport, you may still be number 30 for the ILS. If this is going to be a problem, call the emergency or divert.

Always have a back up plan...

JAFI

 

[satpak77]

I continue to raise my eyebrows at pilots who are afraid to declare "min fuel" or even declare an emergency (if indeed a emergency exists) due to their fear of "paperwork" or "visits from the Feds"

If you are in an emergency, declare it. If you have min fuel, declare it.

period

 

[User546]

So you handled the situation and landed safely. No reason for a visit from your local Feds... A Min Fuel call doesn't even raise an eyebrow.

Yea, forgive my wording in that. I didn't catch it until just a minute ago.

We weren't getting any cooperation from Approach, so we ended up having to delcare a Fuel EMERGENCY not min fuel. That's why I was a bit suprised cause the local feds had an office right next door to where we parked!

 

[Rattler71]

Declaring minimum fuel means you used more fuel than you planned and you are trying to stay alive. If the flight is at that point, the feds are the last thing on my mind. l



Rattler71

Yea, I didnt mean to sound so dramatic. Was just trying to point out that if I am having fuel issues, I don't even think about the feds response.

Rattler71

 

[JAFI]

We weren't getting any cooperation from Approach, so we ended up having to delcare a Fuel EMERGENCY not min fuel. That's why I was a bit suprised cause the local feds had an office right next door to where we parked!

Unless ATC had a problem with what you did the FSDO would normally not get involved. Again, you handled the problem and landed safely, end of story.

Now if you ran out of fuel and did an "off" airport landing, THEN you would be visited from the FSDO.

JAFI

 

[slowto250]

Unless ATC had a problem with what you did the FSDO would normally not get involved. Again, you handled the problem and landed safely, end of story.

Now if you ran out of fuel and did an "off" airport landing, THEN you would be visited from the FSDO.

JAFI

Possibly to pay their last respects.

 

[ATCER]

There is no clear cut answer for this... At the center our procedures are this, A/C declares minimum fuel, controller asks A/C their intentions/request and we alert the supervisor. Every A/C that declares is logged. Majority of the time nothing comes of it. It is a common occurence for traffic from Europe to declare minimum fuel and need to divert due to head winds, most of the time it involves flights from Europe destined places such as MMMX, MMUN, etc. They often declare and divert to MYNN. Sometimes they have to even duck into TXKF if the winds are bad.

On a busy swap night when we're holding for all the NY metros half the planes that are issued holds declare minimums. Any mention of fuel is taken very seriously by ATC...

The only time you would see any trouble from the feds is if a pattern develops. A while back we had a corporate charter from the islands (TNCM) destined somewhere in Virginia declare, we cleared him direct and had to work out transition through hot warning areas with the military. (those of you that are familiar with the east coast know of all the warning areas). IN the following 2 weeks same thing happened 2 more times... the feds did take a look.

Rattler71 said it best... if in doubt declare... don't let the thought of a visit by a fed effect your decision.

 

[JAFI]

ATCER, good post. If a trend develops where an emergency becomes common, then you may have to explain your planning procedures...

The system is there to give you an out if and when proper fuel planning doesn't work. It is much better if you tell ATC any problems you have and ask for assistance than to do a dead stick landing and then do a dance on the carpet in front of the Judge. I can tell you they do not have a sense of humor when it comes to hazarding passengers or any one on the ground.

JAFI

 

[Lead Sled]

much can be aircraft dependent...

for example - 20 series Learjets or other turbojets - a few lengthy low level vectors and you go from IFR reserves to "minimum fuel" pretty quick.

luckily enough, many controllers understand this and are usually pretty helpful.......at least from my experience.

With a 20 series Lear the drill was to top it off, start and taxi out, get airborne, then advise ATC that you had a fuel emergency in progress.

'Sled

 

[FN FAL]

Actually, "minimum fuel" is more of a "heads up" to ATC that you can't take any more delays . . . . or you will then have to declare an emergency.

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5-85. MINIMUM FUEL ADVISORY[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]a. Pilot --[/font]

1. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Advise ATC of your minimum fuel status when your fuel supply has reached a state where, upon reaching destination, you cannot accept any undue delay.
   
   [/font]
2. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Be aware this is not an emergency situation, but merely an advisory that indicates an emergency situation is possible should any undue delay occur.
   
   [/font]
3. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Be aware a minimum fuel advisory does not imply a need for traffic priority.
   
   [/font]
4. [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If the remaining usable fuel supply suggests the need for traffic priority to ensure a safe landing you should declare an emergency account low fuel and report fuel remaining in minutes. (Reference -- Pilot/Controller Glossary, Fuel Remaining).[/font]

Yes sir!

We had unforcast low ceilings and vis one night at MKE. Down to the RVR. That limited the airport to one runway and there is a rush hour at the airport at that time of night.

After being in a vector conga line for at least 45 minutes, I was placed in a position to almost call fuel min, but the controller called me and told me my next vector was for the downwind for the ILS...number two.

Don't think that this is something a low timer gets him/her self caught up in...during the conga line, airliners were being given hold instructions and as Nogs With Attidudes checked on freq and was told to expect to hold and they went WTF?...they were told they were number 25 in line. So the unforcast conditions caught everbody by surprise...even the big rig 121 guys.

I would have played the min fuel card with no regrets...it was unforcast wx.